Ariane Martell Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 I was thinking about when Rhaegar said goodbye to Jamie, and said " when I come back things are going to change". When was that? Was it before he "kidnapped" Lyanna? Or was it when he was going to fight Robert?If it was before he went away with lady Lyanna, then the most popular theory about his last words, that he was planned a rebellion, are very hard to be possible. He was planned to have a child, the third head of the dragon. That's most likely to be the change.But if after the "kidnap" he went back to KL, where is more probable to him to had said those words since Jaime couldn't leave Aerys side. What did he told Elia? I mean he had to have some nerves to come back. But also he kinda needed to face the mess he made. I think this is the least possible option but I'm not sure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dornish Whine Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 I think that was just before he lost his rubies to Robert's hammer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danelle Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 I was thinking about when Rhaegar said goodbye to Jamie, and said " when I come back things are going to change". When was that? Was it before he "kidnapped" Lyanna? Or was it when he was going to fight Robert?Ιwas right before he left to fight Robert at the Trident and long after he kidnapped Lyanna. He took members of the KG along but Jaime complained cause he was left behind and losing all the action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ariane Martell Posted October 5, 2012 Author Share Posted October 5, 2012 I think that was just before he lost his rubies to Robert's hammer.So was it in KL or where? If Jaime talked to him, maybe somebody else did it too. Somebody the prince trusted more. Somebody who's still alive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The BlackBear Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 So was it in KL or where? If Jaime talked to him, maybe somebody else did it too. Somebody the prince trusted more. Somebody who's still alive?It was presumably in the yard of the red keep. I'm sure he spoke to many people after that. It was strongly implied he was concerned about his father for some time, and had planned to quietly depose him, probably peacefully. His words simply show his regret before he goes off to fight Lyanna's brother and betrothed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonin Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 The last actual conversation that we know of took place at KL, before Rhaegar headed off to the Trident.There is also Jaimes dream from adwd"He was your king," said Darry."You swore to keep him safe," said Whent."And the children, them as well," said Prince Lewyn.Prince Rhaegar burned with a cold light, now white, now red, now dark. "I left my wife and children in your hands.""I never thought he'd hurt them." Jaime's sword was burning less brightly now. "I was with the king...""Killing the king," said Ser Arthur."Cutting his throat," said Prince Lewyn."The king you had sworn to die for," said the White Bull. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ariane Martell Posted October 5, 2012 Author Share Posted October 5, 2012 It was presumably in the yard of the red keep. I'm sure he spoke to many people after that. It was strongly implied he was concerned about his father for some time, and had planned to quietly depose him, probably peacefully. His words simply show his regret before he goes off to fight Lyanna's brother and betrothed.I'm sorry but except for Jaime's last memory of Rhaegar, what else 'strongly imply' that he was planning to depose his father? He was fine with it for 26 years, why would he change suddenly? Specially after doing something so selfish ans stupid as leaving his wife and running with a 15 year old girl? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna Stark Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 I'm sorry but except for Jaime's last memory of Rhaegar, what else 'strongly imply' that he was planning to depose his father? He was fine with it for 26 years, why would he change suddenly? Specially after doing something so selfish ans stupid as leaving his wife and running with a 15 year old girl?Aerys was paranoid that Rhaegar was planning something at Harrenhal, so despite not leaving the Red Keep for years and years, he decided suddenly to attend. And Varys was Aerys' advisor, so it's possible Varys had picked up on a plan by Rhaegar (and most likely Ser Arthur Dayne and maybe the White Bull) to replace Aerys with Rhaegar.Barristan also laments that he was not in Rhaegar's inner circle, unlike Ser Arthur Dayne and a few others.So circumstantial evidence, but that is often all we get in ASOIAF. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ariane Martell Posted October 5, 2012 Author Share Posted October 5, 2012 Aerys was paranoid that Rhaegar was planning something at Harrenhal, so despite not leaving the Red Keep for years and years, he decided suddenly to attend. And Varys was Aerys' advisor, so it's possible Varys had picked up on a plan by Rhaegar (and most likely Ser Arthur Dayne and maybe the White Bull) to replace Aerys with Rhaegar.Barristan also laments that he was not in Rhaegar's inner circle, unlike Ser Arthur Dayne and a few others.So circumstantial evidence, but that is often all we get in ASOIAF. :)Yes but I don't trust anything Varys says. He's the biggest player and liar in the game. For me, it doesn't count as any proof.Oh it would be so good Barristan was, we would know so much Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJ McLannister Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Oh it would be so good Barristan was, we would know so muchOr Barristan would have been killed at the Tower of Joy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna Stark Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Yes but I don't trust anything Varys says. He's the biggest player and liar in the game. For me, it doesn't count as any proof.Oh it would be so good Barristan was, we would know so muchYou have Aerys being paranoid, Barristan mentioning that he was not in Rhaegar's inner circle (meaning Rhaegar had one) and also Jaime's last talk to him, so we have three things all pointing towards there being something discussed at least. That's about as much as it gets a lot of the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Manhood-Eating Goat Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 I'm sorry but except for Jaime's last memory of Rhaegar, what else 'strongly imply' that he was planning to depose his father? He was fine with it for 26 years, why would he change suddenly? Specially after doing something so selfish ans stupid as leaving his wife and running with a 15 year old girl?Aerys wasn't mad or a bad king for 26 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ab aeterno Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 I'm sorry but except for Jaime's last memory of Rhaegar, what else 'strongly imply' that he was planning to depose his father? He was fine with it for 26 years, why would he change suddenly? Specially after doing something so selfish ans stupid as leaving his wife and running with a 15 year old girl?"When the battle’s done I mean to call a council. Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago, but ... well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when I return"That's the actual quote from Jaime's memory of the last time he spoke to Rhaegar, in the yard of the Red Keep just before Rhaegar left for the Trident.Specifically, this memory is from while Jaime is at Tywin's funeral. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The BlackBear Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Aerys wasn't mad or a bad king for 26 years.Duskendale pushed him over the edge and that was 9 years before he died. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ariane Martell Posted October 5, 2012 Author Share Posted October 5, 2012 Or Barristan would have been killed at the Tower of Joy.NOO. not my Barristan. I don't think he would be in ToJ, he was too loyal to the king, he would stay by his side. But wait, while I was typing the last sentence I notice that Barristan WASN'T by Aerys side when he died, at least if he were he would've fought Jamie and one of them would be dead Jamie So where was he? Was he the one who took Dany's mother and Viserys away? If yes, why didn't he stay with them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 NOO. not my Barristan. I don't think he would be in ToJ, he was too loyal to the king, he would stay by his side. But wait, while I was typing the last sentence I notice that Barristan WASN'T by Aerys side when he died, at least if he were he would've fought Jamie and one of them would be dead Jamie So where was he? Was he the one who took Dany's mother and Viserys away? If yes, why didn't he stay with them?He was at the Trident, got wounded and captured, spouted some nonsense about killing Robert if he smiled about Rhaegar's children corpses, didn't do it and swore him his sword. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ariane Martell Posted October 5, 2012 Author Share Posted October 5, 2012 You have Aerys being paranoid, That's because of Varys, Barristan said so. So as I don't believe in Varys, this is not a proof for me Barristan mentioning that he was not in Rhaegar's inner circle (meaning Rhaegar had one) Yes, but everyone have a inner circle of friends, the fact that Rhaegar was closer to some people doesn't mean anything. and also Jaime's last talk to him, True. That I can accept as proof so we have three things all pointing towards there being something discussed at least. That's about as much as it gets a lot of the time. Actually as proven above we've one, I least in my opinion. That's not enough, specially when what he said to Jamie could mean something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ariane Martell Posted October 5, 2012 Author Share Posted October 5, 2012 He was at the Trident, got wounded and captured, spouted some nonsense about killing Robert if he smiled about Rhaegar's children corpses, didn't do it and swore him his sword.oh thanks for answering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ab aeterno Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Actually as proven above we've one, I least in my opinion. That's not enough, specially when what he said to Jamie could mean something else.That, and Jon Connington has a line about Rhaegar recognizing how Aerys had been poisoned by his own paranoia. Combined with what Jaime says, it certainly suggests that Rhaegar was probably planning something.King Aerys was one such. By the end, even Rhaegar saw that plain enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ariane Martell Posted October 5, 2012 Author Share Posted October 5, 2012 Aerys wasn't mad or a bad king for 26 years.No but he was for about 10 years before he was killed. By that time, Rhaegar was already an adult by westerosi culture. Let's say he struggle in accept his father was really mad, but if he really cared about the kingdom well being and not about being a hero, how long would it take proof his father madness? Two, three years? By the time Aerys was killed he already was super crazy, it takes time like this, I bet what he did to the Starks wasn't a only time thing. So being really nice, let's say he was mad like that for five years, why didn't Rhaegar do something? Specially when once he believed to be a hero.He took a long time watching his father madness, it's hard for me to believe he would change. Not impossible, since we don't really know Rhaegar, but hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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