When was the last time Rhaegar talked to Jamie?

[Ariane Martell]

That, and Jon Connington has a line about Rhaegar recognizing how Aerys had been poisoned by his own paranoia. Combined with what Jaime says, it certainly suggests that Rhaegar was probably planning something.

Oh thank you for it. I didn't remember that quote. But after his father burned his "lover's" father and strung her brother, it would be absurd of him to say "Oh, that's nothing. He's just going through a phase". But yeah, I can consider this a second proof, not much reliable.

Or maybe the idea just poped after this but that still doesn't make Rhaegar this great guy that legend on the forum tells.

[The BlackBear]

He was at the Trident, got wounded and captured, spouted some nonsense about killing Robert if he smiled about Rhaegar's children corpses, didn't do it and swore him his sword.

I thought it was: 'If Robert had smiled there would have been no power on earth that would have stopped him killing him.' Doesn't seem too nonsensical to me.

From the fact he didn't kill him, it seems Robert hadn't smiled. That he was on hand during the presentation of the bodies, implies he had already accepted and joined Roberts Kingsguard after the Trident where Robert sent his own Maester to him.

[ab aeterno]

I thought it was: 'If Robert had smiled there would have been no power on earth that would have stopped him killing him.' Doesn't seem too nonsensical to me.

From the fact he didn't kill him, it seems Robert hadn't smiled. That he was on hand during the presentation of the bodies, implies he had already accepted and joined Roberts Kingsguard after the Trident where Robert sent his own Maester to him.

I believe we're told that Robert looked away, along with just about everyone else in the throne room, other than Tywin.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I thought it was: 'If Robert had smiled there would have been no power on earth that would have stopped him killing him.' Doesn't seem too nonsensical to me.

From the fact he didn't kill him, it seems Robert hadn't smiled. That he was on hand during the presentation of the bodies, implies he had already accepted and joined Roberts Kingsguard after the Trident where Robert sent his own Maester to him.

"I see no children, I see only dragonspawn." Robert Baratheon. It's just that Barristan doesn't stay true to his vow.

[Ariane Martell]

"I see no children, I see only dragonspawn." Robert Baratheon. It's just that Barristan doesn't stay true to his vow.

That doesn't mean he smiled, being indifferent and taking pleasure are too different things. Both are horrible, but one make him a terrible man and the other makes him a worst monster than Ramsay. And could you, please, post the whole part in which this quote is from?

[ab aeterno]

That doesn't mean he smiled, being indifferent and taking pleasure are too different things. Both are horrible, but one make him a terrible man and the other makes him a worst monster than Ramsay. And could you, please, post the whole part in which this quote is from?

I believe that quote is from Ned and Robert's conversation while hunting just after leaving Winterfel. Though it's also possible that it takes place just after Robert is informed that Dany is pregnant. I think that it is the former, however.

[Nuncle Kraken]

"I see no children, I see only dragonspawn." Robert Baratheon. It's just that Barristan doesn't stay true to his vow.

That proves Robert wanted them wiped out. It does not prove he was high fiving anyone or happy about it.

Barristan understood why Robert needed to secure his reign. but would have killed him if he took pleasure from it.

[Jolene Brown]

I could be remembering wrong, but I'm pretty sure Barristan wasn't there. He's speaking hypothetically - IF Robert had smiled, he would have killed him - because he doesn't know and he's wondering about it. At the time, he was still recovering from his injuries. That's why he didn't have to kneel later before Robert with Jaime and Varys and Pycelle to ask pardon for having served Aerys or whatever they were doing.

[Danelle]

I could be remembering wrong, but I'm pretty sure Barristan wasn't there. He's speaking hypothetically - IF Robert had smiled, he would have killed him - because he doesn't know and he's wondering about it. At the time, he was still recovering from his injuries. That's why he didn't have to kneel later before Robert with Jaime and Varys and Pycelle to ask pardon for having served Aerys or whatever they were doing.

I agree. It is implied that Barristan was not present when Tywin presented the bodies to Robert. Even the fact that Barristan wonders if Robert smiled slightly indicates that when it came to Targaryens, Robert was ruthless.

[Ariane Martell]

Ned was afraid that if Tywin hadn't kill them, Robert might had. And they actually stopped talking because of it, they only "made peace" after Lyanna's death, if I'm not wrong. And that comment about dragonspawnd I'm almost sure was about Dany's baby, what means he wasn't the same Robert, after the Lyanna's death, after he became king, he wasn't the same that hung out with Ned. Ned himself comments how Robert changed, not only physic. The comment he did about how Bran should've died in the fall because it was better than being a cripple, he did, and only remember while drunk. Not that it's a excuse. I think Robert in certain aspects was always a terrible man, but I find hard to believe Ned would be such friends with him if he was always this awful. I think that in his head killing a unborn child and an already grown thinking child's different. Maybe not old for King Bob, but for the young maybe...I think he would had tried to kill them but back out in the moment. And make them live in a tower to be watched IDK, or raised them far away with no knowledge of who they were

[The Lord's Kiss]

Rhaegar was planning on doing something, most likely convening the Small Council and having them install him as Lord Protector of the Realm while Aerys could be shipped off to Dragonstone or the like. This is why the great tourney at Harrenhal was organized and all the lords from across the realm attended. Rhaegar needed to get their consent and affirm their loyalties to the crown.

Obviously Varys got wind of the scheme and told Aerys, he left his castle for the first time in nine years. It must have been for a good reason, and it messed up everything Rhaegar had planned. He still had to go through with everything, and Lyanna ended up catching his eye. We know where things went from there, kind of.

Rhaegar couldn't do anything before this because Aerys was his father, he was the king. The realm had suffered bad kings before, and Rhaegar most likely assumed things would run their course and he would restore the kingdom once he had gained the throne. His big fuckup was running away with Lyanna. This causes Brandon to rebel, and Aerys ends up executing his Warden of the North along with his heir in a most brutal fashion. He then presumes to call for the heads of more powerful heirs. The last words Rhaegar says to Jaime before riding to his death say he meant to call a council sooner, but too little too late.

Point is, Rhaegar fucked up, big time. But there is more than enough evidence to conclude Rhaegar saw the danger his father posed not only to the realm but to his own family, and if he had won on the Trident I don't think Aerys would have been king for much longer.

[James Arryn]

Yeah, given what we know of Rhaegar, I presume the form his assumption of control would have taken wouldn't have been so much extra-legal as premised on some long forgotten precedent. Or at least that's what I think his challenge would have been; to find such. I don't think he'd simply take over in a might is right manner. He was apparently brilliant, and he'd have seen what that kind of action would do to royal authority.

So I'm hazarding a guess that he had found some sort of legal basis for deposing Aerys, and that is probably involved in why it came 'too late'.

[Ariane Martell]

Rhaegar was planning on doing something, most likely convening the Small Council and having them install him as Lord Protector of the Realm while Aerys could be shipped off to Dragonstone or the like. This is why the great tourney at Harrenhal was organized and all the lords from across the realm attended. Rhaegar needed to get their consent and affirm their loyalties to the crown.

That doesn't make sense. The fact that the lords across the realm, we don't know if all, crossed to attend the tourney doesn't proof anything that Rhaegar was planning something. Knights and highborn in general travel to see/participate on tourney. And if even the Prince and King was there, it was normal that almost or indeed all of the lords were there. That's how joust works.

Obviously Varys got wind of the scheme and told Aerys, he left his castle for the first time in nine years. It must have been for a good reason,

What Varys tells cannot be trusted. He's the biggest player in the Game, he lies as he breaths. And do you really wanna find "reason" on the actions of a mad person?

and it messed up everything Rhaegar had planned.

I liked to believe that a prince would be smarter than that. If he said that he was going to a tourney, a tourney must had existed and he must participate or his father would soon know that he was lying. And even if his plan was do a meeting with the "small council" in the break that would be stupid since wouldn't be safe

He still had to go through with everything, and Lyanna ended up catching his eye. We know where things went from there, kind of.

So your theory is that he was a great hero that was gonna saved everybody, but then he "fell in love",and for whole year did nothing about his plan, not even the small council, since he told Jaime he would do just when he came back, and then he spend another year cheating on his wife? What a prince.

Rhaegar couldn't do anything before this because Aerys was his father, he was the king.

Oh please and when did Aerys stopped being his father or his king? Never. He didn't do something before because he was in denial. A behavior very similar to his sister's.

The realm had suffered bad kings before, and Rhaegar most likely assumed things would run their course and he would restore the kingdom once he had gained the throne. His big fuckup was running away with Lyanna. This causes Brandon to rebel, and Aerys ends up executing his Warden of the North along with his heir in a most brutal fashion. He then presumes to call for the heads of more powerful heirs. The last words Rhaegar says to Jaime before riding to his death say he meant to call a council sooner, but too little too late.

Point is, Rhaegar fucked up, big time. But there is more than enough evidence to conclude Rhaegar saw the danger his father posed not only to the realm but to his own family, and if he had won on the Trident I don't think Aerys would have been king for much longer.

I think he did, but only after Aerys killed Brandon and Rickard. And even if he did his small council meeting, I don't believe it would led to much since his biggest bother wasn't the well of the realm, of his father's madness, he only stopped being in denial when it personally hit him. I don't believe in his reasons and that he could until the end with this

[Jolene Brown]

Robert's comment about dragonspawn referred to Rhaenys and Aegon, not Dany's unborn child. Something like "I see no children, only dragonspawn," when the bodies were displayed.

[grindylow]

I found two places where Robert talks about 'dragonspawn'. The quote we're tossing around is about Rhaegar's children, while the other mentions are about Dany and her unborn child:

“Daenerys Targaryen has wed some Dothraki horselord. What of it? Shall we send her a wedding gift?”

The king frowned. “A knife, perhaps. A good sharp one, and a bold man to wield it.”

Ned did not feign surprise; Robert’s hatred of the Targaryens was a madness in him. He remembered the angry words they had exchanged when Tywin Lannister had presented Robert with the corpses of Rhaegar’s wife and children as a token of fealty. Ned had named that murder; Robert called it war. When he had protested that the young prince and princess were no more than babes, his new-made king had replied, “I see no babes. Only dragonspawn.” Not even Jon Arryn had been able to calm that storm. Eddard Stark had ridden out that very day in a cold rage, to fight the last battles of the war alone in the south. It had taken another death to reconcile them; Lyanna’s death, and the grief they had shared over her passing.

This time, Ned resolved to keep his temper. “Your Grace, the girl is scarcely more than a child. You are no Tywin Lannister, to slaughter innocents.” It was said that Rhaegar’s little girl had cried as they dragged her from beneath her bed to face the swords. The boy had been no more than a babe in arms, yet Lord Tywin’s soldiers had torn him from his mother’s breast and dashed his head against a wall.

“And how long will this one remain an innocent?” Robert’s mouth grew hard. “This child will soon enough spread her legs and start breeding more dragonspawn to plague me.”

Martin, George R.R. (2003-01-01). A Game of Thrones: A Song of Ice and Fire: Book One (p. 107). Random House, Inc.. Kindle Edition.

and

“Ser Jorah would not dare deceive me,” Varys said with a sly smile. “Rely on it, my lord. The princess is with child.”

“So you say. If you are wrong, we need not fear. If the girl miscarries, we need not fear. If she births a daughter in place of a son, we need not fear. If the babe dies in infancy, we need not fear.”

“But if it is a boy?” Robert insisted. “If he lives?”

“The narrow sea would still lie between us. I shall fear the Dothraki the day they teach their horses to run on water.”

The king took a swallow of wine and glowered at Ned across the council table. “So you would counsel me to do nothing until the dragonspawn has landed his army on my shores, is that it?”

“This ‘dragonspawn’ is in his mother’s belly,” Ned said. “Even Aegon did no conquering until after he was weaned.”

Martin, George R.R. (2003-01-01). A Game of Thrones: A Song of Ice and Fire: Book One (p. 341). Random House, Inc.. Kindle Edition.

[ab aeterno]

@grindylow

Good work picking out the two "dragonspawn comments," I was partially right about it referring to Dany after her pregnancy, but thanks for picking up the first one.

Also, can I just commend you on your lovely use of footnotes? :)

[Bushido]

Ιwas right before he left to fight Robert at the Trident and long after he kidnapped Lyanna. He took members of the KG along but Jaime complained cause he was left behind and losing all the action.

He was complaining because he didn't want to be a toy in the hands of Aerys/Tywin.

[Danelle]

He was complaining because he didn't want to be a toy in the hands of Aerys/Tywin.

or in his own words, a crutch

[Ariane Martell]

Oh thank you so much for the research, grindylow. nice work!

[grindylow]

@grindylow

Good work picking out the two "dragonspawn comments," I was partially right about it referring to Dany after her pregnancy, but thanks for picking up the first one.

Also, can I just commend you on your lovely use of footnotes? :)

I'd love to take credit for them, but they paste automatically when I pull them from my e-book, so all credit goes to Kindle :)