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Red Queen

The Two Wildling Babies (Spoilers)

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Up until the point that we learn that Jon Snow forced Gilly to swap her son for Mance's son, leaving her boy to possibly be sacrificed to the Red God, he was my favourite character. If I was in Gilly's place Jon would have had to kill me in order to do that as I would kill him first to stop him taking my child. Even if I did take Mance's son to Braavos, if anything happened to my baby I would find a way back and kill Jon. I wonder if that is something that George R. R. Martin has included later in the book, or even the next book. I can't think for a second that Jon would seriously believe that no-one would care what happens to Craster's baby because he's a bastard born of incest. Jon has never known a mother's love so he would not understand the pain doing this would have caused Gilly. Of course I am a mother so this event is quite significant to me. Eddard would be ashamed of Jon if he was alive and learned that Jon did this.

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Nevermind.

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Pretty sure he did it so no babies would be sacrificed. I think he only intends to keep the secret untill Mance's son is safely away. What makes you think he will let gilly's baby be killed before revealing it's Crasters son so they have no reason for the sacrifice, since it's the whole kings blood thing. Gilly agreed because she didn't want to see the child killed and trusted Jon to keep her child safe.

And I'm pretty sure Eddard understands hiding a baby's true identity to keep it safe if you buy into R+L=J

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The point of swapping the babies was not to protect Mance's child at all cost, it was that no babies would be harmed. The 2 babies means the same for Jon, and the only way to make sure BOTH of them are safe is to swap them and then reveal it if Stannis ever decides to burn the baby.

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Like everyone here has said, I think Jon wouldn't let them sacrifice Gilly's baby. He would reveal the change before the sacrifice could happen.

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I also agree Jon had it all figured out. As soon as Melisandre wanted to kill the baby, Jon would reveal his identity (even though he hasn't a name :ohwell: ) and then the sacrifice would be nonsense.

Of course it's not a popular decision, but it certainly was one of the most clever he has made (and will probably ever make)

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Well, Gilly was weeping for most of the voyage. She's probably all out of tears and she's just a girl that was raped by her father and she's never gone beyond Craster's Keep before now. In addition, even if she wanted revenge on Lord Snow, she has no way of getting back to the Wall. As the others have said, Lord Snow did what he did to protect both the babies.

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He did this so neither of the babies would be harmed. Gilly understands this, though of course she is extremely distraught.

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Gilly being distraught sure as hell didnt stop her from jumpin' all over Sam's bones though... was a good idea for Jon and every one involved. I also think Jon did Sam a solid for giving him a way out of the black. Yes, Sam left with every intention of doing what he needs to do and coming back but I just dont see that happening.

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lol oh god.

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Gilly being distraught sure as hell didnt stop her from jumpin' all over Sam's bones though... was a good idea for Jon and every one involved. I also think Jon did Sam a solid for giving him a way out of the black. Yes, Sam left with every intention of doing what he needs to do and coming back but I just dont see that happening.

No, Sam said the words.

Nothing short of the will of a king can change that.

...owait

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You got it all wrong. Eddard would be proud of Jon for doing this. In doing what he did he saved both children. The wilding prince would have been burned if he stayed but since the babies got switched neither die. No point in bunring a bastard baby. He did what he felt was right for the realm.

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He did the right thing, but as a mother too I found it really hard to read and feel Gilly's pain. As Sam notes towards the end of the book though, she does seem to come to love Dalla's boy as she had loved her own...I think she will be ok. She has entered 'acceptance' stage.

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I find delight in the untimate irony that all the seething hatred in Jons life was caused by him being involved in a baby switch...then later in life he himself committed a baby switch :)

BRILLIANT!

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Up until the point that we learn that Jon Snow forced Gilly to swap her son for Mance's son, leaving her boy to possibly be sacrificed to the Red God, he was my favourite character. If I was in Gilly's place Jon would have had to kill me in order to do that as I would kill him first to stop him taking my child. Even if I did take Mance's son to Braavos, if anything happened to my baby I would find a way back and kill Jon. I wonder if that is something that George R. R. Martin has included later in the book, or even the next book. I can't think for a second that Jon would seriously believe that no-one would care what happens to Craster's baby because he's a bastard born of incest. Jon has never known a mother's love so he would not understand the pain doing this would have caused Gilly. Of course I am a mother so this event is quite significant to me. Eddard would be ashamed of Jon if he was alive and learned that Jon did this.

I believe Jon knew that there is no reason to sacrifice Gillies baby. Her child is safe.

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I have a feeling Jon would step in and inform Melisandre of the switch should she try to burn the baby, or at least told Gilly he would. He did get Aemon out of there for the same reason.

Otherwise, Gilly would've justifiably clawed his eyes out.

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Yeah. It annoyed me that Sam hadn't pulled together any of these threads until Aemon pointed it out. And even then it didn't occur to him that, as we've said, Jon would most likely protect Gilly's baby from being burned by revealing the switch.

Guess Sam's experience of growing up with a father that would beat him, chain him up and then threaten to kill him would not make him likely to work out the whole thing...

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Agreed about Jon revealing the baby situation before a Mel sacrifice.

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I think Martin intends that we hate Jon at least a little for this. This shows how he is growing up, becoming hardened, learning to make the tough choices that end up in the right place.



Unfortunately, all aspects of life in Westeros are at the mercy of fickle fortunes. Jon is gambling that Gilly's baby will survive a few years until things shake out and he can send the kid down to Oldtown. He certainly needs to keep the switch secret until Sam's party is safely away, but it seems to be another case of his poor decision making not to have revealed it by mid-ADWD. Now there is the possibility that Mel will sacrifice the kid while Jon is in a coma, hoping to generate poier to save him, or do something else useful. So Jon may wake in TWOW and be in formed by Mel that Mance's baby was burned, but R'hllor strangely refused to help. And Jon will say "Your fires didn't tell you that the child was not truly his? If your god didn't tell you, he must truly consider you lacking."


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