TYRION IS AERYS' SON

[Danelle]

Tyrion had a dream where he had two heads. Interesting. That's another potential connection to a Targ bastard (aside from the mismatched eyes).

This is from DWD, Tyrion's pov

If I drink enough fire wine, he told himself, perhaps I' ll dream of dragons. When he was still a lonely child in the depths of Casterly Rock, he oft rode dragons through the nights, pretending he was some lost Targaryen princeling, or a Valyrian dragonlord soaring high o'er fields and mountains.

It could be a coincindence or a hint, one of the many times Tyrion mentions hos obsession with fire, dragons and the Targaryen dynasty.

That is the dream that Tyrion had:

That night Tyrion Lannister dreamed of a battle that turned the hills of Westeros as red as blood. He was in the midst of it, dealing death with an axe as big as he was, fighting side by side with Barristan the Bold and Bittersteel as dragons wheeled across the sky above them. In the dream he had two heads, both noseless. His father led the enemy, so he slew him once again. Then he killed his brother, Jaime, hacking at his face until it was a red ruin, laughing every time he struck a blow. Only when the fight was finished did he realize that his second head was weeping.

I had never thought that the dream could be a hint to Tyrion's true ancestry. I thought that the two heads referred to his feelings for Jaime: a mix of love and hatred.

I had never heard of Maelys having two heads...Is this why they called him monstrous?

In any case Tyrion's dream of two heads could also signify his double heritage: Targaryen father and Lannister mother. He is glad to kill Jaime, Aerys' murderer but sad to kill Joanna's son.

[DaveRoid]

Wouldn't that mean Jamie and Tyrion killed each others fathers? Also that would mean Danny is Tyrion's sister like cersie is Jamie's...... oh boy.

[DaveRoid]

I used to be in this camp ( I vacillated between Aerys and Rhaegar ) because I thought it might fit the bill of one of the prophecies (AA tempering lightbringer through the heart of a lion resulting in a broken sword). I've since come up with another alternate reading of the prophecy and I've somewhat moved away from the Tyrion is a secret Targ. I still think it's a possibility, but the biggest problem I see with this is theory is the issue Aegon the worthy brought up, namely how is this theory ever revealed to the reader? Even if it comes out that Aerys did rape Joanna, how do you prove that Tyrion is Aerys' son and not Tywin's?

It doesn't need to be revealed at all. Tyrion could develop affinity with Danny's Dragons and it can go from there.

[James Blackfire]

The only thing to go in in this regard is that barristan tells dany that her father lusted after tyrion's mother. even if he did eventually have sex with her I can imagine he would wait so long which makes the lannister twins more likely candidates, (I don't believe they are) also tywin would never let this go. he would have rebelled or at the very least tyrion would be dead. also there are way to many secret targ theories. it is actually absurd.

[DreamSongs]

I have a feeling that we'll find out once we get a POV in CR. Someone there has to know...of course it requires one of the Lannister siblings to be present for the reveal.

ETA: Or the reveal will be by Genna at Riverrun which again requires one of the siblings to be present.

[DreamSongs]

Wouldn't that mean Jamie and Tyrion killed each others fathers? Also that would mean Danny is Tyrion's sister like cersie is Jamie's...... oh boy.

See, I don't which would be more ironic and both options serve the tragic elements of Tyrion and Jaime's relationship with eachother...if Tyrion is Aerys' son, then he and Jaime have killed eachothers father. If Jaime and Cersei belong to Aerys, then they have both killed their own fathers and are kinslayers. Tyrion NOT being Tywin's son simply defeats the dynamic between Tywin and Tyrion; Jaime NOT being Tywin's son turns his entire life into a tragedy as well as turning Tyrion and Tywin's lives into a tragic comedy.

Help me...I'm going all Shakespeare...Thanks alot Jaime's Wench!!!

[Jaime's Wench]

See, I don't which would be more ironic and both options serve the tragic elements of Tyrion and Jaime's relationship with eachother...if Tyrion is Aerys' son, then he and Jaime have killed eachothers father. If Jaime and Cersei belong to Aerys, then they have both killed their own fathers and are kinslayers. Tyrion NOT being Tywin's son simply defeats the dynamic between Tywin and Tyrion; Jaime NOT being Tywin's son turns his entire life into a tragedy as well as turning Tyrion and Tywin's lives into a tragic comedy.

Help me...I'm going all Shakespeare...Thanks alot Jaime's Wench!!!

You're quite welcome. Shakespeare is zee best source of inspiration for all tragic figures.

I quite like the mirroring of Tyrion killing Jaime's father and vice versa, but I do not see how it would make Jaime's life a tragic comedy. He has already 'rejected' Casterly Rock as his inheritence, not once but twice. Of all the Lannisters, he's the least to bang on about being a Lannister. I would even go so far as to say his fame and notereity has been only about 30% down to being a Lannister, and 70% down to his own actions. Of the three children, he's the least 'bothered' about Tywin being his father. Cersei spends her whole life wishing to be him and Tyrion has spent a good part of it trying to kill him. Jaime, on the other hand, very rarely mentions him.

[The Mother of The Others]

This Westeros society of promiscuous nobles, man! They are so in need of Maury Povich and his ability to tell each of them who their father is once and for all. If fact, that'd make a GREAT bonus feature to include on the season 7 DVD's for the show: have the cast all sit down with Maury and have him reveal who the real parents are for all these characters we have lingering doubts about like Tyrion and the other Lannisters.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

Tyrion NOT being Tywin's son simply defeats the dynamic between Tywin and Tyrion;

This is a common complaint and I disagree. Tyrion is raised by Tywin, truly believes Tywin is his father, and from their Interaction Tywin believes Tyrion is his son. If Tyrion turns out to be Aery's son it doesn't dissolve the relationship that he had with Tywin just because they don't share genetic material. Joanna was Tywin's first cousin so he's still guilty of kinslaying in the eyes of the gods, and Tyrion killed the man he thinks is his father , and he'll always have to live with that, even if Tywin is not his biological father. I don't see it as a free pass.

[King Aemon I]

I'll go with nephew or a first cousin once removed... Since that I believe Tywin was Aerys's brother or cousin, a Targaryen...

[nekrohsis]

Doesn't Ned at one point say that Bran isn't his son, that he was fathered by a squirrel because of all the climbing he does?

Wait a sec . . . the CotF are described as 'squirrel-like' . . .

But seriously, I firmly believe in A+J=J+C. Why else would Tywin marry Joanna, his cousin, from whom he gains no political benefits? Sure, they say they were in love, but what in the story supports the idea that Tywin even at a young age would have been senseless enough to pull a Rob? Now, if Joanna had been raped by the Mad King, and was expecting a child . . . would Tywin marry his cousin to prevent his house from suffering shame? Of course he would have!

[sertravisredbeard]

I'm not sold on either theory but the one that makes sense to me is Jaime and Cersei being Aerys's. Barristan talked about how there were rumors of Aerys liking Tywin's wife Joanna a little too much. Tywin and Joanna were first cousins, which might explain Tyrion's deformities. And Tywin hated Aerys for reasons even before he turned down his Cersei-Rhaegar idea. It's not that solid of a theory though.

[Khal GoGo]

In A Dance With Dragons, Tyrion's POV as he's being sold by the slavers

Strands of hair, pale blonde and black, clung to his brow, the rags of his tunic to his back.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

But seriously, I firmly believe in A+J=J+C. Why else would Tywin marry Joanna, his cousin, from whom he gains no political benefits? Sure, they say they were in love, but what in the story supports the idea that Tywin even at a young age would have been senseless enough to pull a Rob? Now, if Joanna had been raped by the Mad King, and was expecting a child . . . would Tywin marry his cousin to prevent his house from suffering shame? Of course he would have!

My problem with this is that Tywin was then Hand of the king for another 16 years until Jaime was appointed to the kingsguard. Cersei arranged it, but Aerys's behavior indicates that he did it out of spite. If Tywin knew Jaime was not his son it seems like he should be delighted that he has an excuse to disinherit Jaime. In which case Aerys did him a favor, yet this causes Tywin to resign.

So in your scenario Tywin is horribly wronged, yet remains a faithful servant for 16 years. Then is given the excuse to discharge someone whom he would not want to inherit, and yet resigns out of anger. It really doesn't fit. Jaime and Cersei could potentially be Aerys's, but his behavior doesn't fit with Tywin knowing. On the other hand his 'You will never have the rock' comment to Tyrion fits perfectly with him knowing that Tyrion is not his.

[Light a wight tonight]

One thing that could be explained if A+J=T: if Tywin was aware of it but unable to do anything he could have been taking his anger out on Tyrion. Not just a dwarf but a cuckoo's egg.

Nah, Tyrion's not nutty enough to be a Targ. (But maybe he's not Targ enough to be nuts.)

[Men in their cups say...]

You should all check out the A+J=T thread in the Dance With Dragons Forum

[Pope Killdragon]

For the upteenth time: No. Just no.

[Tanin Hawkwing]

I believe Danny, Jon, and Tyrion are the three heads of the dragon and I have no problem with it.

Aegon is a Faegon.

[Danelle]

I believe Danny, Jon, and Tyrion are the three heads of the dragon and I have no problem with it.

Aegon is a Faegon.

:agree:

But seriously, I firmly believe in A+J=J+C. Why else would Tywin marry Joanna, his cousin, from whom he gains no political benefits? Sure, they say they were in love, but what in the story supports the idea that Tywin even at a young age would have been senseless enough to pull a Rob? Now, if Joanna had been raped by the Mad King, and was expecting a child . . . would Tywin marry his cousin to prevent his house from suffering shame? Of course he would have!

GRRM was asked about that in an interview and said that Tywin was in love with Joanna but also wanted to strenghten House Lannister. To a certain extent he was imitating the Targaryens by marrying a relative. It was about maintaining the purity of his bloodline.

Personally I like to think that:

• Tywin and Joanna were in love
  
• Cersei and Jaime are their children
  
• Tywin and Joanna divided their time between KL and CR. Tywin was Hand and Joanna was castellan. During one of her visits in KL, Aerys seduced/raped Joanna
  
• Nine months later Tyrion is born and Joanna dies
  
• Tywin never suspected that Tyrion is not his.
  
• The only two people that might know the truth are Barristan and Varys
  

As for Dany being Rhaegar and Lyanna's daughter, well, nothing is impossible. But from Jaime's pov, we are told that Aerys and Rhaella hated each other and Aerys visited her chambers only after he had burned someone. The day he burned Lord Chelsted I think, he visited his sister and raped her. Next morning Rhaella departed for Dragonstone with Viserys.Nine months later Dany was born. I think we can safely assume that Dany is Aerys' and Rhaella's daughter.

[Quiet Isle]

One thing that could be explained if A+J=T: if Tywin was aware of it but unable to do anything he could have been taking his anger out on Tyrion. Not just a dwarf but a cuckoo's egg.

Nah, Tyrion's not nutty enough to be a Targ. (But maybe he's not Targ enough to be nuts.)

Rhaegar was a Targ and he was not crazy. By all accounts, from all sides, he was decent and honorable (if we assume that Lyanna and he were in love - and he could have married her because Targs were allowed multiple wives). barristan said it, ned never denied it either. it's a 50/50 whether they become crazy. it is said in the books it's a coin toss. There is also a theory that Jaime and Cersei are only half siblings. one is Lannister and one is Targ. it could happen, as they are most certainly not identical twins, but fraternal.