TYRION IS AERYS' SON

[Ser Dylen of the Green Oak]

oh i don't deny that at all. he could have. but that's not the point here. what is the point is that he certainly could have bedded her. hence Tyrion.

and thanks for the heads up on no apparent madness before Duskendale.

No problem. I don't mean to be mistaken - I'm not denying that it is very possible, in fact, quite the opposite. I was attempting - badly - to show a change in direction of my thought due to the realisation that prior to Duskendale there was no madness. As for the reasons for the rape, I wasn't presenting new evidence. Just stockpiling reasons why I could happen, thus adding to the likelihood of Tyrion being Aerys' child.

[Groat]

I tend to disagree with you on this point. The Targs had a hard time controlling the dragons at times. The fire at Summerhall is one example, when they tried to hatch some dragons. I think only some Targs can do it - the ones who have a lot of dragon blood in them genetically. what that is, i have no idea. but hold that thought. Starks - select starks - can warg. and martin said that dragons have about the same intelligence as dogs. i just don't think the Starks have ever had an opportunity to try warging a dragon. But they're about to - when Dany brings them to Jon, who is both Targ and Stark.

I may have been unclear with the point I was making. A lot of people were claiming that there would be no way to verify if Tyrion was actually a secret Targ. My point is if Tyrion comes back to Westeros riding a dragon, it's pretty clear he is a Targ. Granted, a true born Targ being eaten by a dragon does not necessarily negate said person from being a Targ, but anyone who can mount and ride a dragon descends from the dragonlords of Valyria, and since the Doom there is only 1 line of dragonlords still remaining.

And same for the Starks. If Arya shows up at Winterfell with Nymeria, not a single person including Ramsay would even try to claim that Jeyne is the real Arya. Or, a much more realistic scenario, if someone were to claim Rickon Stark was still alive, the direwolf would be the proof. Starks and Targs have their own form of paternity tests.

[Quiet Isle]

The Defiance of Duskendale took place two years after Tyrion was born. All mentions of his madness are dated post-Duskendale.

Bingo. thank you. two years after tyrion. i think the death of Joanna, who he loved, and the birth of a misshapen "dragon" (who killed his non-targ mother at birth, just like dany and jon did, drove him mad.

and i know there are plenty of nontarg women who had normal births - but they weren't birthing prophesized, true dragons.

[Quiet Isle]

It's funny you should mention that, because Daemon Blackfyre was said to look almost an exact copy of Aegon the Conqueror - and I don't think we have descriptions of his descendants. So, no - they (most probably) had the standard Targaryen hair.

The ones that didn't, were the Targs born of the Dornish marriages - Baelor Breakspear was one and Rhaegar's daughter Rhaenys was another.

ETA: Actually, it turns out we do have a description. From the wiki:

are you really going to trust wiki?! hahaha. i use it too, btw. but hear me out. The Stark line has been around a loooong time. perhaps their DNA is really strong, as strong as the Targs. Jon is blackheaded. and i don't think anyone here believes he is anything but a targ.

[Winter's Knight]

I may have been unclear with the point I was making. A lot of people were claiming that there would be no way to verify if Tyrion was actually a secret Targ. My point is if Tyrion comes back to Westeros riding a dragon, it's pretty clear he is a Targ. Granted, a true born Targ being eaten by a dragon does not necessarily negate said person from being a Targ, but anyone who can mount and ride a dragon descends from the dragonlords of Valyria, and since the Doom there is only 1 line of dragonlords still remaining.

And same for the Starks. If Arya shows up at Winterfell with Nymeria, not a single person including Ramsay would even try to claim that Jeyne is the real Arya. Or, a much more realistic scenario, if someone were to claim Rickon Stark was still alive, the direwolf would be the proof. Starks and Targs have their own form of paternity tests.

Actually, Mel was able to have Ghost recognise her and ignore Jon-doesn't make her a Stark.

[Quiet Isle]

Think Joffrey Baratheon.

sorry, not following you on this.

[Groat]

Actually, Mel was able to have Ghost recognise her and ignore Jon-doesn't make her a Stark.

Maybe Mel is a secret Stark!

But seriously my point is that Tyrion riding a dragon will be the paternity test that everyone says is impassible.

[Winter's Knight]

Maybe Mel is a secret Stark!

But seriously my point is that Tyrion riding a dragon will be the paternity test that everyone says is impassible.

But it isn't-the Dragonlords are said to have used horns and spells to bind the dragons.

[Quiet Isle]

But it isn't-the Dragonlords are said to have used horns and spells to bind the dragons.

thank you for that. wargers won't have to use that. and the starks have never had the opportunity before now to do so. Come on Tyrion and Dany - take them to the Wall!

[Groat]

But it isn't-the Dragonlords are said to have used horns and spells to bind the dragons.

Only the dragonlords can ride the dragons. Dany mounts Drogon with nothing more than a whip. There is only 1 possible way for someone to mount a dragon. The original Aegon was scared to mount his sister's dragons. If Tyrion is able to mount one of the dragons I think it would clearly indicate his lineage as Targaryen.

[TheCrannogDweller]

And same for the Starks. If Arya shows up at Winterfell with Nymeria, not a single person including Ramsay would even try to claim that Jeyne is the real Arya. Or, a much more realistic scenario, if someone were to claim Rickon Stark was still alive, the direwolf would be the proof. Starks and Targs have their own form of paternity tests.

The difference being that each animal bonded with a particular Stark. And given the fact that they are the only direwolves south of the Wall, it is a pretty good assumption that whoever sees them is going to remember them.

The Dragons, however, don't bond with a particular person - Balerion was ridden by others after Aegon's death. And yes, they were all Targaryens.

Although, come to think of it, we don't know what would happen to one of the direwolves, should he/she outlive his/her Stark.

are you really going to trust wiki?! hahaha. i use it too, btw. but hear me out. The Stark line has been around a loooong time. perhaps their DNA is really strong, as strong as the Targs. Jon is blackheaded. and i don't think anyone here believes he is anything but a targ.

No, I'm not trusting the wiki completely, but I would trust it for that - because one of the main reasons people wanted Daemon on the throne was because he looked so much like Aegon I.

Yes, most people believe that Jon is Rhaegar's son (including me), but it is not yet a proven fact. And he would be the first person ever to be of mixed Stark-Tark parentage. We don't have previous examples to compare.

We do know, however, that the blond gene is very strong in the Lannisters - they are all fair haired. It takes the all powerful Baratheon genes to change that - hence my mentioning of Joffrey.

And what do you mean by "as strong as the Targs'" - in the rare cases that they have married with people from different houses, there has been some children without the classic Dragonlords' looks.

[Quiet Isle]

No problem. I don't mean to be mistaken - I'm not denying that it is very possible, in fact, quite the opposite. I was attempting - badly - to show a change in direction of my thought due to the realisation that prior to Duskendale there was no madness. As for the reasons for the rape, I wasn't presenting new evidence. Just stockpiling reasons why I could happen, thus adding to the likelihood of Tyrion being Aerys' child.

yes, i fully understood. thank you for giving me information.

[Quiet Isle]

I may have been unclear with the point I was making. A lot of people were claiming that there would be no way to verify if Tyrion was actually a secret Targ. My point is if Tyrion comes back to Westeros riding a dragon, it's pretty clear he is a Targ. Granted, a true born Targ being eaten by a dragon does not necessarily negate said person from being a Targ, but anyone who can mount and ride a dragon descends from the dragonlords of Valyria, and since the Doom there is only 1 line of dragonlords still remaining.

And same for the Starks. If Arya shows up at Winterfell with Nymeria, not a single person including Ramsay would even try to claim that Jeyne is the real Arya. Or, a much more realistic scenario, if someone were to claim Rickon Stark was still alive, the direwolf would be the proof. Starks and Targs have their own form of paternity tests.

i agree and disagree. I think the Starks can ride them through warging, not through intimidation, spells, horns etc. They have just never had the opportunity to do so before now. so riding a dragon alone might not do it. but it sure would be one thing. I would prefer to see tyrion blasted by one of the dragons trying to ride one.... and not dying. then we have the proof.

[Quiet Isle]

The difference being that each animal bonded with a particular Stark. And given the fact that they are the only direwolves south of the Wall, it is a pretty good assumption that whoever sees them is going to remember them.

The Dragons, however, don't bond with a particular person - Balerion was ridden by others after Aegon's death. And yes, they were all Targaryens.

Although, come to think of it, we don't know what would happen to one of the direwolves, should he/she outlive his/her Stark.

No, I'm not trusting the wiki completely, but I would trust it for that - because one of the main reasons people wanted Daemon on the throne was because he looked so much like Aegon I.

Yes, most people believe that Jon is Rhaegar's son (including me), but it is not yet a proven fact. And he would be the first person ever to be of mixed Stark-Tark parentage. We don't have previous examples to compare.

We do know, however, that the blond gene is very strong in the Lannisters - they are all fair haired. It takes the all powerful Baratheon genes to change that - hence my mentioning of Joffrey.

And what do you mean by "as strong as the Targs'" - in the rare cases that they have married with people from different houses, there has been some children without the classic Dragonlords' looks.

I still don't get what you mean by "it takes the all powerful baratheon genes to change that - joffrey. he's not a baratheon. he's just a combo of his twin parents.

and i think Varys' head is shaved (he's the only one) because he is a targ and doesn't want anyone to see his/her hair.

[Jaime's Wench]

I still don't get what you mean by "it takes the all powerful baratheon genes to change that - joffrey. he's not a baratheon. he's just a combo of his twin parents.

and i think Varys' head is shaved (he's the only one) because he is a targ and doesn't want anyone to see his/her hair.

The Lannisters and Baratheons did marry at some point, and produced dark-haired children (Just as is the case mostly with our gene pools, though it didn't work for me).

Varys is just Varys. I think at some point, either Aerys or Rhaella showed him an act of kindness that he had never known and for that reason he remains loyal to their dynasty. I really hope he is not a secret Targ.

As to the dragons, I think a bond must be created at some point between dragon and rider, just as there is sometimes unique bonds between horse and rider (I would like to think there is one between me and Bay, but when I sat someone else on him for the first time ever, he acted the same).

[TheCrannogDweller]

I still don't get what you mean by "it takes the all powerful baratheon genes to change that - joffrey. he's not a baratheon. he's just a combo of his twin parents.

and i think Varys' head is shaved (he's the only one) because he is a targ and doesn't want anyone to see his/her hair.

Well, you don't get it, because you fused my arguments about Jaime/Cersei and Tyrion and used them as one. My point was that if either Jaime or Cersei was a secret Targ, it would've shown in one of their kids' appearances. Tyrion's look, however, is so unique, that it can't really be used as a factor in determining his parentage.

And Varys a Targaryen? Yeah, he is as much a Targ as Hodor.

[Quiet Isle]

The Lannisters and Baratheons did marry at some point, and produced dark-haired children (Just as is the case mostly with our gene pools, though it didn't work for me).

Varys is just Varys. I think at some point, either Aerys or Rhaella showed him an act of kindness that he had never known and for that reason he remains loyal to their dynasty. I really hope he is not a secret Targ.

As to the dragons, I think a bond must be created at some point between dragon and rider, just as there is sometimes unique bonds between horse and rider (I would like to think there is one between me and Bay, but when I sat someone else on him for the first time ever, he acted the same).

well while i fully understand your logic, the prologue in ADWD clearly shows that you can certainly warg someone without a unique bond, imho. it's not there for no reason. and i do think Varys is a secret targ. and i think fake aegon is his/her child with illyrio. illyrio keeps his wife's hands. isn't that lovely. i think he cut them off of Serra when she found out he was in love with and had impregnated Varys and Serra tried to kill her. varys keeps his gender under wraps because a woman couldn't infiltrate Court as council. we'll see.

[Quiet Isle]

Well, you don't get it, because you fused my arguments about Jaime/Cersei and Tyrion and used them as one. My point was that if either Jaime or Cersei was a secret Targ, it would've shown in one of their kids' appearances. Tyrion's look, however, is so unique, that it can't really be used as a factor in determining his parentage.

And Varys a Targaryen? Yeah, he is as much a Targ as Hodor.

I didn't fuse arguments. the thread became separated by other posters. I really don't think Jaime or cersei are targ. but i do think tyrion is.

Ok. we'll see. i am not the only one who thinks that fake Aegon is a blackfyre, and so is varys.

[Jaime's Wench]

Well, you don't get it, because you fused my arguments about Jaime/Cersei and Tyrion and used them as one. My point was that if either Jaime or Cersei was a secret Targ, it would've shown in one of their kids' appearances. Tyrion's look, however, is so unique, that it can't really be used as a factor in determining his parentage.

That depends if the Targs are recessive or dominant genes. They wouldn't need to be dominant genes for the legitimate Targs as they wed brother to sister anyway. But you're right, it does weaken their case. -phew-

[Quiet Isle]

That depends if the Targs are recessive or dominant genes. They wouldn't need to be dominant genes for the legitimate Targs as they wed brother to sister anyway. But you're right, it does weaken their case. -phew-

hahaha. i love this repartee. Perhaps they are dominant in some matings, and recessive in others. if we accept that jon is a targ, it is clear that stark dna trumps targ hair dna in at least one case. ahhhh, nature.