hint for stark vengance at end of adwd?

[Ser Pollo Loco]

I don't think the Blackfish had this letter. Robb makes up his mind about Jon on his way to the Red Wedding. The Blackfish is still at Riverrun when Robb and his lords fix their seals to the letter.

The Blackfish could still be heading North. I think the only other place he could possibly go is the Vale.

I

don't know where he's going, but Blackfish probably knew who robb was going to name and if not, he did talk with edmure before leaving the castle and edmure who knew who he named

[Ser Alasdair the Bard]

Someone a bit earlier in this thread said that they reckon that Jeyne will be a small side character because of what the producers did in the show. This is incorrect in my opinion. I think they changed Jeyne Westerling (Mother being a Spicer of Volantis through Maggy her mother) simply in to Tulissa (not sure on her first name spelling) Spicer. This wipes out the Westerlings from the plot, cutting about 7 cast members from the show, meant that they could have the Jaime running away fiasco etc in Season 2 in a camp and not in Riverrun, and it will also later help them make the red wedding cheaper, because it will need to be awesome and having loads of proper actors be in the show for a season without doing more than being Squires etc and then dying soon after is a big waste of money. In short, making her Tulissa is like how they changed Theon's sisters name or how they never had Boulton in Harrenhal, it just cuts cost but keeps things in the same feel i.e. Robb broke his promise to Freys and married an unsuitable woman for love.

[The Bastard's Bastard]

Someone a bit earlier in this thread said that they reckon that Jeyne will be a small side character because of what the producers did in the show. This is incorrect in my opinion. I think they changed Jeyne Westerling (Mother being a Spicer of Volantis through Maggy her mother) simply in to Tulissa (not sure on her first name spelling) Spicer. This wipes out the Westerlings from the plot, cutting about 7 cast members from the show, meant that they could have the Jaime running away fiasco etc in Season 2 in a camp and not in Riverrun, and it will also later help them make the red wedding cheaper, because it will need to be awesome and having loads of proper actors be in the show for a season without doing more than being Squires etc and then dying soon after is a big waste of money. In short, making her Tulissa is like how they changed Theon's sisters name or how they never had Boulton in Harrenhal, it just cuts cost but keeps things in the same feel i.e. Robb broke his promise to Freys and married an unsuitable woman for love.

I heard Talisa is confirmed to be at the Red Wedding. I'll laugh if they kill her. But the whole thingy was how Robb married Jeyne for honor, since he banged her while being in an incredibly fked up state. In the show they build up this romance which kinda imo takes away that Stark pride from Robb.

They changed Asha to Yara, so people wouldn't mix her up with Osha (lol).

[cuendillar]

They "Jeyne switch" theory seems totally debunked by now, by GRRM himself. He mentioned that messing up her description "sparked conspiracy theories about a switch", among other mistakes. He additionally admitted that someone's eyes changed colours between books and that a horse changed gender among details he had gotten wrong throughout the books.

Unfortunately I can't find the interview again, it was a non-transcripted article in a newspaper. It's not in the SSM archive either, that I could find.

[RenlySupporter16]

As much as we all would like A piece of Robb Stark to live on aren't we forgetting one major piece of information here. Sybell Spicer, scheming she devil that she is, is present during the siege of Rivverun right along side her daughter. When the escort sets out for the west there she is, with her husband and daughter in tow. Why would this woman who put such complicated political machinations In play allow her daughter to flee with Brynden Tully and not raise the alarm. She has shown that despite being an evil and scheming woman she fears upsetting the Lannisters. And why would the rest of the traveling party, servants and the like who have seen Jeyne many times before not report the disappearance to Jamie to curry favor with Casterly Rock and the Iron Throne. We must accept that Jeyne Westerling is headed to the west without a baby inside her.

[The Bastard's Bastard]

As much as we all would like A piece of Robb Stark to live on aren't we forgetting one major piece of information here. Sybell Spicer, scheming she devil that she is, is present during the siege of Rivverun right along side her daughter. When the escort sets out for the west there she is, with her husband and daughter in tow. Why would this woman who put such complicated political machinations In play allow her daughter to flee with Brynden Tully and not raise the alarm. She has shown that despite being an evil and scheming woman she fears upsetting the Lannisters. And why would the rest of the traveling party, servants and the like who have seen Jeyne many times before not report the disappearance to Jamie to curry favor with Casterly Rock and the Iron Throne. We must accept that Jeyne Westerling is headed to the west without a baby inside her.

Agreed. And even though she was pregnant the baby would not survive long.

[Ser Alasdair the Bard]

I heard Talisa is confirmed to be at the Red Wedding. I'll laugh if they kill her. But the whole thingy was how Robb married Jeyne for honor, since he banged her while being in an incredibly fked up state. In the show they build up this romance which kinda imo takes away that Stark pride from Robb.

They changed Asha to Yara, so people wouldn't mix her up with Osha (lol).

I understand the points you made and they are not new to me. What I was saying is that I do not think they changed it on the basis that Jeyne is a redundant character, I think they changed it for the cut in cost and the fact that it may be more appealing to non-book fans. Meh, I was mad at the change at first now I just don't really care.

[GrandPoobah]

Um no....

Rob "had to be honourable and marry Jeyne"

I think it was pretty obvious she was pregnant long before and he had to marry her

Having said that the heir will not be important (Rob is not a real king, the offspring is way too young) to matter for this story

:agree:

Agreed. On top of all that there's no "living" Stark with any substantial power base ATM. Which means that an heir (which there probably isn't) is basically worthless. And would cause Jeyne's family problems with their Lannister backers in any case.

Assuming she somehow had a 14 month pregnancy... :rolleyes:

Legal heirs are how crowns/houses get handed down when swords aren't involved. They're effectively a way to transfer them peacefully. They're also a way for a contender to the throne to bring swords to his side. Once armies have already gone to war, nobody's likely to give up and support some "legitimate heir" unless said heir is winning.

Nobody supported Robert because he had a more pure Targaryen bloodline than Aerys. They supported him a very tiny bit because he had SOME of it (why he was chosen over Ned or someone else). For the most part, he got it because Aerys was a poor leader and Robert was winning some battles.

[HannibalStark]

Well, that short guy is kind of a thinker, too, but I get your point. ;)

That short guy is much more than just a "thinker" and if I recall he is actually sympathetic if not respectful of the Stark's and what they have been through.

[TheCrannogDweller]

They "Jeyne switch" theory seems totally debunked by now, by GRRM himself. He mentioned that messing up her description "sparked conspiracy theories about a switch", among other mistakes. He additionally admitted that someone's eyes changed colours between books and that a horse changed gender among details he had gotten wrong throughout the books.

The changing eyes were Renly's - I think that they were first described as green and then as blue, or the other way around.

I don't think that Jeyne is carrying Robb's heir, mostly because GRRM has told the creators of the HBO series the main points of the story, in case something happened to him. The fact that they changed Jeyne to Talissa IMO means that her only plot-importance was to drive the final wedge between Robb and Walder Frey.

I don't know where he's going, but Blackfish probably knew who robb was going to name and if not, he did talk with edmure before leaving the castle and edmure who knew who he named

Robb's Will was sent North in the custody of Maege Mormont and Galbart Glover. They are supposed to go to Howland Reed. The Blackfish's ecape from Riverrun happened much later. A poster in another thread made a compelling argument in favor of Brynden being in the Riverlands and preparing to retake Riverrun.

[True_lord_of_york]

The problems with the jeyne leaving riverrun goes way beyond just description even though cat mentions it specifically atleast 2ce and even ending her chapter with "her hips are good for bearing children. That may be important....." And than obviously Jamie describes jeyne in a completely different way. But even more the only sibling not supposed to be present at riverrun is reynald. She has a little sister. Where is she when the westerlings are leaving riverrun. Jamie's description even sounds like the little sister. Even age. Idk just some food for thought...

[Bear Claw]

Jeyne? Or "Jeyne"? Remember, Jaime comments on her narrow hips, opposed to Cats comments a thousand pages prior. And there is a little sister not mentioned in Jaime's POV.

And Lady Spicer is a liar one way or the other, not exactly a reliable source.

Full hips before her husband is brutally killed and narrow hips after. Stress alone could account for the loss of weight.

[True_lord_of_york]

It's way more than just that. What about the missing sister than

[TheCrannogDweller]

It's way more than just that. What about the missing sister than

The missing sister is about 12 years old. So if you're implying that a switch has been made, I highly doubt it. I think that Jeyne's hips are just another case of "Renly's eyes".

[aryagonnakill]

:agree:

Agreed. On top of all that there's no "living" Stark with any substantial power base ATM. Which means that an heir (which there probably isn't) is basically worthless. And would cause Jeyne's family problems with their Lannister backers in any case.

Assuming she somehow had a 14 month pregnancy... :rolleyes:

Legal heirs are how crowns/houses get handed down when swords aren't involved. They're effectively a way to transfer them peacefully. They're also a way for a contender to the throne to bring swords to his side. Once armies have already gone to war, nobody's likely to give up and support some "legitimate heir" unless said heir is winning.

Nobody supported Robert because he had a more pure Targaryen bloodline than Aerys. They supported him a very tiny bit because he had SOME of it (why he was chosen over Ned or someone else). For the most part, he got it because Aerys was a poor leader and Robert was winning some battles.

I believe Rob became king instead of Ned because Ned didn't want to be king.

I do not think Jeyne is pregnant, I believe the comment narrow hips was another hint at Jaime's unconscious desire for Brienne.

[Ser Alasdair the Bard]

I believe Rob became king instead of Ned because Ned didn't want to be king.

I do not think Jeyne is pregnant, I believe the comment narrow hips was another hint at Jaime's unconscious desire for Brienne.

Robb was declared King in the North in a very moving way by his bannermen, not really by his own proclamation. This makes sense to me because one thing GRRM likes to say in the book through Varys, Tyrion and in interviews is that power is where it is believed to be (On a side note this is also a very large field of argument in modern day politics so it shows GRRM's range of research and knowledge), so Robb is King because people think he should be, due to him being charismatic his fathers son and a great warlord (I wouldn't say he is a great general as he is what, 15 or 16, and made loads of mistakes tactically outside of battle). Ned was not king for a few of simple reasons in my view, you mentioned one, the others would be, he didn't have as good a claim as Robert (who had lots of Targ blood), he loves his family, his people and his home and wouldn't want to pack them off into the dangerous south and he was really never as outspoken at Robert.

I can see where you are going with the narrow hips thing with Jeyne, but really I think the slow shift to being attracted to Brienne is meant to solidify Jaime's transformation from incestuous, shit-for-honor murderer, into a somewhat better person as well as accentuating how much he dislikes his twin by aDwD. This leads nicely onto my post about the valonqar and Cersei in another thread, so you can go read that if you like. :) Thanks for suffering my block of prose :D

[Mulled Wino]

Never fear. Your vengence is coming in the form of No One. And hell's coming with her..

[aryagonnakill]

Robb was declared King in the North in a very moving way by his bannermen, not really by his own proclamation. This makes sense to me because one thing GRRM likes to say in the book through Varys, Tyrion and in interviews is that power is where it is believed to be (On a side note this is also a very large field of argument in modern day politics so it shows GRRM's range of research and knowledge), so Robb is King because people think he should be, due to him being charismatic his fathers son and a great warlord (I wouldn't say he is a great general as he is what, 15 or 16, and made loads of mistakes tactically outside of battle). Ned was not king for a few of simple reasons in my view, you mentioned one, the others would be, he didn't have as good a claim as Robert (who had lots of Targ blood), he loves his family, his people and his home and wouldn't want to pack them off into the dangerous south and he was really never as outspoken at Robert.

I can see where you are going with the narrow hips thing with Jeyne, but really I think the slow shift to being attracted to Brienne is meant to solidify Jaime's transformation from incestuous, shit-for-honor murderer, into a somewhat better person as well as accentuating how much he dislikes his twin by aDwD. This leads nicely onto my post about the valonqar and Cersei in another thread, so you can go read that if you like. :) Thanks for suffering my block of prose :D

I was talking about Rob baratheon

[Ser Alasdair the Bard]

I was talking about Rob baratheon

Oh sorry mate, still kind of replied though as I went into why Ned didn't take the throne (in my opinion it must be said). I kind of agree with you though that Robert wanted it more, but to be fair the way I read the books, Robert never wanted the throne eiither, as such, he just wanted to kill the Targs and then later make the Lannisters feel some humility (he failed extraordinarily at both, losing his life and throne to the Lannisters and the youngest Targ is now a woman grown with bloodlust and 3 dragons :P ). You can argue that he did want the perks of being semi infallible and being allowed to do as he pleased but really if any of the other leaders of the rebellion had gained the throne he would have been the third or fourth most powerful lord anyway so doing that would not be an issue.

[Lord Spark of House Spark]

I think that by the time GRRM has finished the book Rickon will be old enough to lead his sons and an army of Skagosi to dole out whatever vengeance is needed, and take his rightful seat at Winterfell, (Which Arya will have been looking after for him)

Possibly