A + J = T

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

Seems to me tyrion is much more like lann the clever than tywin lannister a tyranical prick with an icy attitude and unrelenting quest for power and control. Tyrion is not really like tywin lannister he is much more like lann the clever and lokki the trickester norse god. Tywin and tyrion are both clever but so was joanna. And aerys was not always mad. Having three characters with mystery parentage isn't too excesive. Same as a couple returning dead people. These situations represent aspects of the story they are important to the big picture.

[Jolene Brown]

Except that there IS no mystery about Tyrion's parentage. He is Tywin and Joanna's son. The mystery about Jon was established from the word go, with the speculation about his mother that is rampant throughout the book. There is nothing like that about Tyrion. It would just be stupid.

[Men in their cups say...]

Ok well just to reiterate, evidence for:

Silver Blonde hair

One black, possibly purple like darkstar, eye (flimsy I know)

Bookish nature, like rhaegar

Morbid fascination with dragons

Dragon Dreams (could just be daydreams)

Aerys was known to lust for Joanna

Tywin will never let him rule Casterly Rock

"You are no son of mine"

And also, again, to reiterate, Tywin doesn't necessarily have to know for this to be true. George obviously likes to play with people's perceptions of the Lannisters. Readers have gone from despising to admiring Jaime. From despising to pitying Cersei. From loving to despising Tyrion. Do you really believe Tywin is safe from this.

And finally, my most important point in actually responding to your points here:

Tyrion is Joanna's son. I think Tywin is awesome and I think that alone would be enough to keep him from drowning baby Tyrion in a well....

and someone said something about Tyrion's whoring nature but, cmon, really? This newborn infant looks like a whoremonger to me, even though I too have proven to be a horndog I will drown him in a well based on this assumption...

[Men in their cups say...]

I think Jon is the red herring to throw us off of Tyrions trail....

[Mammothsbane]

Ok well just to reiterate, evidence for:

Silver Blonde hair

One black, possibly purple like darkstar, eye (flimsy I know)

Bookish nature, like rhaegar

Morbid fascination with dragons

Dragon Dreams (could just be daydreams)

Aerys was known to lust for Joanna

Tywin will never let him rule Casterly Rock

"You are no son of mine"

And also, again, to reiterate, Tywin doesn't necessarily have to know for this to be true. George obviously likes to play with people's perceptions of the Lannisters. Readers have gone from despising to admiring Jaime. From despising to pitying Cersei. From loving to despising Tyrion. Do you really believe Tywin is safe from this.

And finally, my most important point in actually responding to your points here:

Tyrion is Joanna's son. I think Tywin is awesome and I think that alone would be enough to keep him from drowning baby Tyrion in a well....

and someone said something about Tyrion's whoring nature but, cmon, really? This newborn infant looks like a whoremonger to me, even though I too have proven to be a horndog I will drown him in a well based on this assumption...

This is going to be my last post in this thread because at this point, it's just not worth arguing anymore.

Silver/blonde hair - He is only once described as having this trait, and it only "appeared" white, which could possibly be from the lighting of where he was standing. Also, blonde hair is a feature of Lannisters. It is also unknown what Joanna's hair color was. It could have been just as blonde.

Eye - described as black. No reason to assume it is possibly purple

Bookish nature - He describes why he reads so much on the road to the Wall with Jon. He is a dwarf. He needs to use the advantages he has - his being intelligence. Also, Rodrik the Reader is bookish as well. Is he a Targaryen too?

Fascination with Dragons/Dreams of Dragons - Could be a result of reading books about them. He reads a lot, and dragons are an interesting topic especially in a world where they existed and were the source of magic. And the dreaming of riding a dragon is like a 5 year old wanting to be an astronaut or some other pipedream.

Aerys lust - Joanna wasn't even with him for most of the time.

"You are no son of mine" - figurative speech. He says the same thing to Jaime.

Not everything has a double meaning. Some things are contextual. Some things are detail for the sake of detail. Tywin raising Aerys' bastard, dwarf son goes against all of the characterization that has been developed of Tywin. It doesn't make any sense for him to raise him. It is the same thing as Cat with Jon. Why would Tywin raise the dwarf, bastard son of Aerys when he could leave him for dead? For someone so concerned about the respect for his house, keeping Tyrion, a walking, talking, breathing reminder of Joanna's infidelity and his house's shame is absolutely uncharacteristically ridiculous it's almost laughable.

Tywin doesn't need to have the same level of character development since he's already dead. He was the Machiavellian lord of House Lannister. His story is done. He doesn't need a perception change. He was what he was and now he's gone. And I'll say it again: changing Tyrion's father completely undermines the relationship we read about (a relationship which made Tyrion the man he is) for five books.

I'm done. Good day, sir.

[Men in their cups say...]

@Mammothsbane Hey I'm just enjoying the discussion. I don't expect you to change your opinion. Just respect that its exactly that, your own opinion.

The evidence I named is all just there, I wont bother to go through piece by piece but it could all be read either way. I'm interested in discussing the idea that Tywin didn't know or only suspected.

But I want to point out that there are a ton of comparisons out there between Ned and Tywin that I've seen people go into, this would definitely be a huge parallel. I was only half joking when I wrote the 'Joanna's promise/Tower of Joy' scenario

And I do think the fact that the series started at "All Lannisters are evil, conspiring, incestuous, child-murderers" and has grown so far away from that is pretty cool...

Ultimately I just think its cool that we can read the exact same text about the guy and form almost identical opinions of him but completely disagree about how he would behave in this hypothetical situation...

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

Except that there IS no mystery about Tyrion's parentage. He is Tywin and Joanna's son. The mystery about Jon was established from the word go, with the speculation about his mother that is rampant throughout the book. There is nothing like that about Tyrion. It would just be stupid.

Just by me saying there is a mystery to tyrion's parentage makes it mysterious enough for me. Too bad that I disagree in the possibility but GRRM set up aerys infatuation with joanna for a reason. Maybe not about tyrion. But it could of been any woman in the seven kingdoms. Sure it gives a little more insight into the struggle between aerys and tywin but I've had my doubts about tyrion's parentage for a long time. Since the scene where tyrion murder's tywin and tywin says your no son of mine or when he constantly compares a dwarf to being a bastard and especially when he makes the statements about thinking of himself as a lost targaryen. His black eye is where the smoke and ash clouded his eye. I don't think tyrion has silver hair. I think it is golden. Cause sansa describes his pubes as golden. It could go either way for me. But I do think GRRM has included enough material to at least question his parentage. :P

[Men in their cups say...]

His pubes aside the book says his hair is so blonde it's almost white. It is known.

[Stannis the Wight]

My ideas for the A+J=T are that tyrion used to pretend he was a lost targaryen prince. Dragon dreams. And what we know of the affair between joanna and aerys. They grew up together. Aerys used to be quite charming. Who knows of the love they harbored. I think tyrion is one of the heads he killed his mother. Jon killed his mother. And dany killed her mother. I don't think their are coincedences in the stories. Grrm is the one true god of westeros.

just blew my mind with that never something i considered

[TheeMikeHoncho]

M+R=T it is known.

[qixoticneurotic]

we should also note that Rhaego was also born stunted and deformed. perhaps a family trait?

[Jolene Brown]

There is no indication in the books itself of any mystery about his parentage. His hair is not described as "silver blonde" that I remember. Liking books is barely even a Targ trait! There are tons and tons of other Targs than just Rhaegar. 1 Targ out of hundreds liking books and Tyrion liking books is like saying I wore a blue dress yesterday and my neighbor wore a blue dress yesterday so we must be related. Tyrion is one of the three most important characters in the book. If his eye had any purplish qualities to its black, we would know it. Stannis is fascinated by dragons too - was Aerys his father? And no, he's not a Targaryan because of 1 great-grandmother or whatever. He's a Baratheon. Could George make Tyrion a Targ? Sure, he can do whatever he wants. But it still wouldn't make any sense. He could make Ned Stark a Targ if he wants in TWOW and it would make just about as much sense as making Tyrion one.

[corbon]

If Tywin thought Tyrion wasn't his son, Tyrion would be dead. It's as simple as that. Any evidence that relies on a hint from Tywin like "you are no son of mine" (which basically, if I remember correctly, is similar to what he said when he disowned Jaime after Jaime refused to leave the Kingsguard - i.e., metaphorical, not literal) is insane. He would have had him drowned in a well the moment Joanna died.

How can you be so sure?

1. He has to know. Or else he risks kinslaying (which is fine for other people to do when it suits your purposes, but another matter to do it yourself).

2. Having Tyrion killed would be tantamount to a public confession that Joanna was unfaithful to him. Could his pride stand that? Could his love for her?

How much more likely that he might even suspect but is unwillingly to really find out the truth?

Stannis has started a war that has ripped the kingdom apart and killed tons and tons of people over a suspicion he can't confirm. I don't think they're huge on "evidence" in Westeros. If he suspected that would be confirmation enough for him.

They are huge on evidence, just not proof. They are also huge on acting on what is personally on politically convenient, even if it can;t be proved, and ignoring what is personally or politically inconvenient and can't be proved anyway.

Where is the evidence that suggests this is true? All I've seen is that his "hair is so blonde it appeared white" and something he said moments before he died taken completely out of context.

1. His eyes - mismatched green and black. The only other example of this is a Targaryen bastard, Shiera Seastar. Where did the black (dark purple?) come from, Lannister green?

Sure, it might be just an aberration the same as his dwarfism. Or it might be a clue, even two clues.

2. The hair - definitely the colour matches Targaryen descriptions - silver-blonde (platinum) rather than universal Lannister (who have golden hair, not 'blonde').

Sure, it might be just an aberration the same as his dwarfism and eyes. Or it might be a clue.

3. Multiple references to Tyrion being a King or throwing an outsized shadow similar. Sure, they might not mean anything, or might be deliberately misleading us. Or they might be clues.

4. Dragon dreams. Sure every kid has dragon dreams don't they? Don't they? ... Do they? Its a noted feature of the Targaryens. We dont here any other non-Targ character talking about their dragon dreams, do we? Are Tyrion's dreams normal kids dreams about dragons or Targaryen dragon dreams? Who knows, outside of GRRM?

5. Moqorro's vision. "Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of it all." Is Tyrion in their midst because he is one of them? Or just because he's caught in the middle (and if so, why isn't anyone else there amidst them, why just Tyrion?) Why does he have a big shadow?

6. Aerys and Joanna. Not just that Aerys lusted for her and took excessive liberties during the bedding ceremony, but that she was teh woman he would have married if he had a choice, someone he grew up with and loved. Sure, they aren't together much after the marriage. But neither of them are nailed down separately from the other barely ever, let alone around the time of Tyrion's conception. We simply don't know when and where they could have had an opportunity. We don't know that they did have an pportunity. but we also don't know and have no clear reason to assume that they did not.

7. Bacon burned black. Thats how Tyrion likes it. I think of this as more of a potential easter egg than a potential clue, but there it is.

8. Tywin barring Tyrion from ruling. Even if he hates him for being a dwarf, thats still got to be a better option than having someone else rule Casterly Rock. Jaime legally can't, Cersei legally can't. Tywin's whole response to the world so far has basically been that even a dwarf Lannister is better than any non-Lannister so there is definitely an inconsistancy there...

9. "You are no son of mine". Yes, yes, he said the same thing to Jaime. OTOH what he said to Jaime was the exception in a moment of anger. With Tyrion it is the reverse - "You are my son" in response to why is he being made Hand is the only time in his entire life that has been admitted (and why, because something is needed from Tyrion).

Yes, its probably just another moment of anger in a lifetime of anger. But maybe its not...

Jolene Brown said it: Twyin would not raise the child if he suspected he was not his own. Tyrion is a dwarf, whoremongering disgrace, but he is a Lannister. He started a war for him in the Riverlands because he is one of them. The honor of the house was at stake. Why would someone borderline obsessed with the honor and respect of his family name "adopt" a dwarf, bastard son of a madman and then pass him off as his own? It genuinely makes no sense. It is not the Tywin we know. He would not do it.

Because its not a question of adoption. And admitting Tyrion is not his is a much bigger blow to his honour than admitting Tyrion is his. Its only the gods messing with him if Tyrion is truly his, but is the Targaryens and the whole world laughing at him if Tyrion is not.

I think you have your 'makes no sense' completely around the wrong way!

You think a Tywin that would raise a bastard son of Aerys is a better character. I think it serves to undermine literally everything we've read about him in the last five books.

Obviously opinion is split.

I struggle to see why anyone must be so committed to only one interpretation. I can see subtleties and depths in many different options, and wonder why people insist on narrowing their vision so?

Except that there IS no mystery about Tyrion's parentage. He is Tywin and Joanna's son. The mystery about Jon was established from the word go, with the speculation about his mother that is rampant throughout the book. There is nothing like that about Tyrion. It would just be stupid.

Indeed it would be stupid. Who is going to dare speculate that Tywin Lannister was cuckolded?

Tywin treats Tyrion as his son (a second class son, but still his son), and therefore so does the world. There is no speculation because "it is known" (which usually means that it is not known!) Ned treats Jon as his bastard. Jon's mother is not known, so there is speculation.

Basically I just completely fail to see your point?

This is going to be my last post in this thread because at this point, it's just not worth arguing anymore.

Indeed, some people just have closed minds. :huh:

Silver/blonde hair - He is only once described as having this trait, and it only "appeared" white, which could possibly be from the lighting of where he was standing. Also, blonde hair is a feature of Lannisters. It is also unknown what Joanna's hair color was. It could have been just as blonde.

Eye - described as black. No reason to assume it is possibly purple

Bookish nature - He describes why he reads so much on the road to the Wall with Jon. He is a dwarf. He needs to use the advantages he has - his being intelligence. Also, Rodrik the Reader is bookish as well. Is he a Targaryen too?

Fascination with Dragons/Dreams of Dragons - Could be a result of reading books about them. He reads a lot, and dragons are an interesting topic especially in a world where they existed and were the source of magic. And the dreaming of riding a dragon is like a 5 year old wanting to be an astronaut or some other pipedream.

Aerys lust - Joanna wasn't even with him for most of the time.

"You are no son of mine" - figurative speech. He says the same thing to Jaime.

Not everything has a double meaning. Some things are contextual. Some things are detail for the sake of detail.

But lots of things can have import. Proof was neither ask for nor offered. Evidence was asked for. All of this is potential evidence.

Some of the 'dismissals' are strong, some of them are very weak. None of the points offered as evidence are individually strong (the strongest can be explained away easily weakening them a lot). But collectively they must certainly offer enough for this to be a viable and respectable theory, whatever the individual judgments as to its overall merits end up being.

The detail for the sake of detail argument is extremely thin. These books are always 'too long' and the reports are always that attempts are made to cut them down and pare away as much as possible.

Tywin raising Aerys' bastard, dwarf son goes against all of the characterization that has been developed of Tywin. It doesn't make any sense for him to raise him. It is the same thing as Cat with Jon. Why would Tywin raise the dwarf, bastard son of Aerys when he could leave him for dead? For someone so concerned about the respect for his house, keeping Tyrion, a walking, talking, breathing reminder of Joanna's infidelity and his house's shame is absolutely uncharacteristically ridiculous it's almost laughable.

Perhaps. Or perhaps what is laughable is the thought that Tywin could ever admit Joanna's infidelity and his house's shame? Even to himself? If he cannot, then even if he suspects Tyrion is not his, he must treat Tyrion as thoug he is his even though he hates him.

[Jem]

2. Having Tyrion killed would be tantamount to a public confession that Joanna was unfaithful to him. Could his pride stand that? Could his love for her?

I agree. Tywin would rather raise the cuckoo than ever admit that he was cuckolded.

While personally, I don't think that Aerys is Tyrion's father, I do think that if GRRM does go down this path then there is plenty, plenty of foreshadowing and hints; it wouldn't come completely out of the blue.

[anon71836]

Well, I'll preface this response by saying that I HATE every "X is secretly a Targaryen" theories.

Just as a quick aside, and not to pick nits, but I believe, under the A + J = T theory, Tyrion would not be a Targ; just like Shiera, Brynden Rivers and Aegor Rivers were not Targs. I know he wouldn't technically be a Blackfyre, but calling Tyrion one might be slightly more apt.

[anon71836]

I agree. Tywin would rather raise the cuckoo than ever admit that he was cuckolded.

While personally, I don't think that Aerys is Tyrion's father, I do think that if GRRM does go down this path then there is plenty, plenty of foreshadowing and hints; it wouldn't come completely out of the blue.

I also think Tywin's character is far more complex than some posters give him credit for. I mean, the guy did what he expressly told Tyrion not to do (and what he essentially blamed his father for doing) because it would besmirch the house's honor: shack up with a prostitute (Shae). All that is apart from the "Ewww" factor of boldly going where your (potential) son had already been.

[callmedodge]

Dreaming about dragons means nothing. What well-read, shunned child wouldn`t dream of being a dragonrider? Doesn`t Bran have similar dreams at some point? Didn`t Jon and Robb pretend to be old Targaryan Lords when they played as children?

I don`t see how this theory holds any weight or is taken seriously at all.

[corbon]

I agree. Tywin would rather raise the cuckoo than ever admit that he was cuckolded.

While personally, I don't think that Aerys is Tyrion's father, I do think that if GRRM does go down this path then there is plenty, plenty of foreshadowing and hints; it wouldn't come completely out of the blue.

Exactly. I too come down on the side of "I don't think Tyrion is a Targaryen, on balance", but its pure bloody-mindedness to insist that there is no evidence supporting the theory.

Dreaming about dragons means nothing. What well-read, shunned child wouldn`t dream of being a dragonrider? Doesn`t Bran have similar dreams at some point? Didn`t Jon and Robb pretend to be old Targaryan Lords when they played as children?

Dragon dreams, mystical dragon dreams, are something specifically noted as a Targaryen trait. Possibly from Dunk and Egg stories?

While it would seem a likely common dream for a boy to have, much like my generation all wanted to be fighter pilots a la Top Gun. However, the only characters actually referenced to having youthful dragon dreams are Targaryens, Jon Snow (aka Targaryen) and Tyrion.

Write it off all you want, the facts remain.

I don`t see how this theory holds any weight or is taken seriously at all.

No one sees anything with a closed mind. The evidence has been laid out. There is plenty there to hold weight, or take seriously, even if you don't agree it adds up to enough to be convincing (like Jem doesn't and I don't).

[Timmay]

Tyrion and Bloodraven similarities

25 January 2012 - 12:17 PM

Bloodraven was Hand to his Nephew (Aerys I)

Tyrion was Hand to his Nephew (Joff)

Bloodraven fell from standing as Hand to be thrown in the Black Cells. (why?)

Tryion arrested for Kinslaying & Kinglsaying was thrown in the Black Cells. (but innocent)

Bloodraven was sent with Aemon to the Wall.

Tyrion was to be sent to the wall before he escaped.

From aSoS Tyrion (Joff’s wedding) p675 Hamish the Harper singing “Lord Renly’s Ride”

“From his throne of bones the Lord of Death looked down on the murdered lord” (Seems more like aDwD Bloodraven description than Stannis to me).

Here is a hint of BR looking down on murdered Aerys I? In the scene where Tyrion interacts with a murdered Joff.

From aSoS Tyrion p677 Galyeon singing “Song of the Blackwater”

“My brother once ruled the seven kingdoms, he said to his harridan wife. I’ll take what was his and make it all mine. Let his son feel the point of my knife.”

“The dark lord assembled his legions, they gathered around him like crows” (again seems more like aDwD Bloodraven description than Stannis to me).

These quotes seem more like Bloodraven descriptions to me than the song topics. BR’s brother that ruled was Daeron II. Bloodraven was Hand to his nephew who died. “Let his son fell the point of my knife”

We have yet to be told what got BR thrown in the cells for or the manner of Aerys I ‘s death. From the Wiki: After Aerys's death, Maekar took the Iron Throne and had Bloodraven imprisoned. Could BR be thrown in the black cells for the same reason Tyrion was, suspected Kin&Kingslaying? Sure seems foreshadowed. Egg then sent him to the wall.

From the wiki:

Shiera Seastar was BR’s lover. She had blue and green mismatched eyes. Like Tyrion although his are green and black.

She was a great reader, even at an early age, spoke many languages, took many lovers, Sounds like Tyrion to me.

Although she refused to marry him (BR), she did share her bed with him, (Maybe making a baby?)

If Tyrion really has Targaryen blood, Could Tryion’s lineage be traced back to Shiera and BR? So many similarities... I bet there is more hidden in the books than this.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

I'm undecided on the Tyrion/Cersei/Jaime parentage hypotheses, but there are a couple of (pieces of evidence)/(false clues) that many people fail to consider.

1) The Lannister kids could have Targ characteristics without being fathered by Aerys II. In particular, Tytos Lannister's mother might have been Rhae or Daella, Egg's sisters. Lannister ancestery prior to Tywin is vague, probably intentionally so. We don't even know the exact relationship (before they married) between Joanna and Tywin.

2) Tywin could be impotent. He would have married Joanna in order to truely continue the Lannister line. His attitude toward whores, and the presence of Shae in his bedroom, were because he suffered from Stawlwart Shield Syndrome. (Stawlwart Shied was the Unsullied eunuch who frequented brothels just to be held by a woman.) (The moment I read about Stawlwart Shield in aDwD, I thought "Tywin! Tywin! Tywin! Even if it is a false clue.")

I'm not saying I'm buying these ideas, but I'm looking them over.