Bowen Marsh is Scum

[The Fallen]

` I'll try to keep my head above the fray in making a case (if you want to call it that) for Bowen.

First off, I'm looking at it subjectively (full disclosure; I'm a Jon fan). Bowen did she a tear while stabbing Jon. The question becomes whether he shed tears because he liked Jon on some level and felt bad that he needed to assassinate him? If I recall correctly, and if I'm wrong don't hesitate to correct me, Bowen didn't hate Jon the way that Lord Janos did nor did he have the same level of resentment that Ser Alliser did. Could the tears be a result of his belief that he was forced into his actions for the sake of and his love for the Night's Watch?

The problem with Bowen is that he's ignorant, but thinks he knows best. Those two are a bad combination of traits for an individual to have, especially when that individual has some level of power. Jon, and Bowen knows this, is thinking only of the attack from the Others and making the necessary preparations. Bowen, however, can't get past the idea of wildlings as perpetual enemies. Even if Bowen disagrees with Jon's decisions it's his duty to follow. Not everyone agreed with the Old Bear's decisions at the Fist of the First Men, but they followed orders (I'm referring to subordinate here, not Chet and his crew of misfits).

Another question is also when Bowen came up with his plan? It seemed pretty well thought out. I don't think Bowen could have convinced several brothers to kill Jon in the short span of time between Jon announcing he's taking on Ramsay and Bowen and Co. actually doing the deed.

On a last note, for those who claim Melisandre will get vengeance, why didn't she do anything to stop it? She was standing there watching the whole thing do down and had seen Jon being betrayed by "friends" in her fires. Unless, of course, it's all part of Red Rollo's plan.

[butterbumps!]

As has been said, the idea that Bowen Marsh is anything more than a racist, cowardly scumbag is contrary to the text, and anyone who supports that argument is most likely just a Jon hater, which I think was proven above with the whole "Jon is boring, Bowen is a hero" argument lol.

Well, in fairness, he's also a homophobe.

[Ingelheim]

Well, in fairness, he's also a homophobe.

A lot of people in Westeros are homophobic.

[butterbumps!]

A lot of people in Westeros are homophobic.

Actually, the Westerosi's attitudes toward homosexuality aren't hateful. Only a few notable characters show derision for homosexuality, and their overt hate in this regard stands out against the norm as subject for more negative character portrayals. Victarion's overt distaste for homosexuals, as well as drunken Septon Cellador and Bowen stand out. There's a few other examples, but overall the attitude is tolerance and indifference from the POVs we see rather than hate. So I feel it's another facet of Bowen's persona that fairly influences our views of him.

[Ingelheim]

Actually, the Westerosi's attitudes toward homosexuality aren't hateful. Only a few notable characters show derision for homosexuality, and their overt hate in this regard stands out against the norm as subject for more negative character portrayals. Victarion's overt distaste for homosexuals, as well as drunken Septon Cellador and Bowen stand out. There's a few other examples, but overall the attitude is tolerance and indifference from the POVs we see rather than hate. So I feel it's another facet of Bowen's persona that fairly influences our views of him.

I totally agree.

[Dr. Pepper]

In the interests of being interesting, I've decided I've reversed my previous stance on Bowen Marsh. He is so totally NOT a scum. Anyone who relies so heavily on numbers is always right. Have you ever seen an accountant who was wrong about anything? I think not. He's the best person in Westeros who works tirelessly to reveal Jon's dirty dealings.

Let us go over just a few of Jon's shady practices:

• Uses sex and honey traps to further his cause. He used Ygritte to advance in the enemies army, Dolorous Edd and Sam to protect his status in the Night's Watch, shamelessly flirts with Tormund BigDick to bring the enemy to his side. He allowed Satin to sleep his way to the top. He's even leading on poor Melisandre.
  
• Accepts bribes in exchange for visas. Instead of doing the right thing and offering refugee status to the wildlings, he coerced them into giving up all their worldly possessions. We haven't seen these baubles again, which only means that he's hidden them away for his own benefit.
  
• He sent off two of the smartest men in the realm because he knew they would realize what he was doing. He had meant for both Sam and Aemon to die on the way. It's too bad that Sam pushed Daeron in the water at the exact moment Daeron was to carry out his assassination orders.
  
• He's circumventing tradition by allowing women to choose for themselves. Like an asshole, he turned down marriage to Val and he's gone so far as to discourage others from using her for their own gains. Probably the worst was when he helped Alys choose an alternative to her uncle. Messing with the rights of man...such a scum.
  
• Probably the worst thing attributed to him, he's boring. He has no flair. He's too solemn and long-faced and history does not look kindly on people like that. People like Jon become nameless folks, relegated to such terrible identities like the Last Hero or the Night's King.
  

My eyes are now open to the truth. I know what Bowen Marsh has been trying to reveal. Jon is evil. The worst person in Westeros. Bowen Marsh will have songs sung about him as the man brave enough to reveal the vileness. Wake up people!

[butterbumps!]

Probably the worst thing attributed to him, he's boring. He has no flair. He's too solemn and long-faced and history does not look kindly on people like that. People like Jon become nameless folks, relegated to such terrible identities like the Last Hero or the Night's King.

In all fairness, I probably could make a sympathetic argument for Bowen. I mean, he's the "old guard" so to speak, and his way of life is coming to an end. I kind of get this, and I really wish he had been presented without the racism, homophobia or patsying because I think it would have certainly added a layer of justification for his behavior and rounded out his character a lot more. I think it's too bad he wasn't drawn that way.

But the "Jon is categorically boring" comments are getting....boring.

[The Sleeper]

I am afraid the truth about Marsh is actually much worse than we could have possibly imagined. He is, in fact, a beaurocrat.

[Dr. Pepper]

In all fairness, I probably could make a sympathetic argument for Bowen. I mean, he's the "old guard" so to speak, and his way of life is coming to an end. I kind of get this, and I really wish he had been presented without the racism, homophobia or patsying because I think it would have certainly added a layer of justification for his behavior and rounded out his character a lot more. I think it's too bad he wasn't drawn that way.

It really annoys me that Marsh's past hasn't been explored at all (or have I missed it?). His name indicates that he's from the Neck. Has your research revealed anything about his past? How he ended up in the watch? Are there any clues?

But the "Jon is categorically boring" comments are getting....boring.

I have a different opinion about this. They are stupid. And lazy. I can say this because I feel stupid and lazy every time I remark on how terrible I think the Dornish characters are just because I find them boring.

[koststerg]

Bowen did she a tear while stabbing Jon. The question becomes whether he shed tears because he liked Jon on some level and felt bad that he needed to assassinate him? If I recall correctly, and if I'm wrong don't hesitate to correct me, Bowen didn't hate Jon the way that Lord Janos did nor did he have the same level of resentment that Ser Alliser did. Could the tears be a result of his belief that he was forced into his actions for the sake of and his love for the Night's Watch?

Another question is also when Bowen came up with his plan? It seemed pretty well thought out. I don't think Bowen could have convinced several brothers to kill Jon in the short span of time between Jon announcing he's taking on Ramsay and Bowen and Co. actually doing the deed.

I agree with you and I think the question you make is important. To answer it remember that 3 hours before the murder (of which the 2 Jon spent with Tormund) and 1 hour before the letter arrives, Bowen met Jon in the presence of Ghost:

Satin helped them back into their cloaks. As they walked through the armory, Ghost sniffed at them, his tail upraised and bristling. My brothers. The Night’s Watch needed leaders with the wisdom of Maester Aemon, the learning of Samwell Tarly, the courage of Qhorin Halfhand, the stubborn strength of the Old Bear, the compassion of Donal Noye. What it had instead was them.

Bowen leaves and Ghost just sniffs at them and looks pretty nervous. I remind you that Gray Wind was mad before entering the Fray castle and was openly hostile and attacking the Frays that took part in the conspiracy. To me this indicates that no assassination decision has been taken by Bowen until then.

So what happens in these 3 hours?

1) Selyse reads the letter (the smear of wax in the letter), does not believe her husband is dead (he is AA, the promised one!), does not trust Mel anymore (Mance is alive!) and realizes that her husband needs help (we know that probably he doesn't)

2) Will Jon help her? No, his priorities are with the Wall and the Others. Even now he is planning the stupid mission at Hardhome. (we know that Jon has changed his plans and wants to go south. I think his goal is to deal with the threat Ramsey poses to the rear of the NW, save Mance whose knowledge of the Others and his ability to control the wildings is crucial in the future war and maybe gather the remnants of Stannis' army - but she doesn't know all these things)

3) She calls for Bowen and tells him that if he kills Jon now without implicating her she will make sure that all the wildings under the wilding king will go south to "save Mance" and help her husband.

Bowen might not be politically clever but he is a well organized person, a man of the numbers, and he realizes that this might be the only chance the NW has to get rid of the wildings. So, he decides to kill Jon, even though he knows that this is a betrayal to the NW, which he is trying to "save". Frustrated and confused (but trying to do what he thinks is best for the NW) he cries while attacking Jon.

[butterbumps!]

It really annoys me that Marsh's past hasn't been explored at all (or have I missed it?). His name indicates that he's from the Neck. Has your research revealed anything about his past? How he ended up in the watch? Are there any clues?

No, and I've been really curious about that. I mean, I don't think he's a Targ loyalist or anything who had been sent like Thorne, and it seems he wasn't ever a knight or a fighter. It follows that he's from the Greywater area and that Howland Reed would be his lord. I don't think we've heard of other Marshes unless I'm mistaken. Perhaps like other Northerners he electively chose to join the Watch.

There's something kind of weird about it though, right? I seem to remember a passage where he showed a kind of reverence for the old gods. I forget where it was at the moment, but it had something to do with not harming weirwoods.

[ab aeterno]

No, and I've been really curious about that. I mean, I don't think he's a Targ loyalist or anything who had been sent like Thorne, and it seems he wasn't ever a knight or a fighter. It follows that he's from the Greywater area and that Howland Reed would be his lord. I don't think we've heard of other Marshes unless I'm mistaken. Perhaps like other Northerners he electively chose to join the Watch.

There's something kind of weird about it though, right? I seem to remember a passage where he showed a kind of reverence for the old gods. I forget where it was at the moment, but it had something to do with not harming weirwoods.

Is any info about him included in the recently released app?

[butterbumps!]

No-- nothing on his background at all.

[Tagganaro]

No, and I've been really curious about that. I mean, I don't think he's a Targ loyalist or anything who had been sent like Thorne, and it seems he wasn't ever a knight or a fighter. It follows that he's from the Greywater area and that Howland Reed would be his lord. I don't think we've heard of other Marshes unless I'm mistaken. Perhaps like other Northerners he electively chose to join the Watch.

There's something kind of weird about it though, right? I seem to remember a passage where he showed a kind of reverence for the old gods. I forget where it was at the moment, but it had something to do with not harming weirwoods.

Which is what made it really odd when Bowen was so fervently against Jon taking the new wildling recruits to the weir wood grove to say their vows.

I have to agree with Butterbumps earlier point that Bowen would have been much more interesting had the racism and homophobia been left out. Because there is actually a rational point buried beneath all it. But the racism just overpowers any logic he might have been able to stand on and makes him thoroughly one-dimensional. He's not quite as much of a caricature as the Evil Z's in Mereen, but he's close enough.

[butterbumps!]

Which is what made it really odd when Bowen was so fervently against Jon taking the new wildling recruits to the weir wood grove to say their vows.

I have to agree with Butterbumps earlier point that Bowen would have been much more interesting had the racism and homophobia been left out. Because there is actually a rational point buried beneath all it. But the racism just overpowers any logic he might have been able to stand on and makes him thoroughly one-dimensional. He's not quite as much of a caricature as the Evil Z's in Mereen, but he's close enough.

Yea- logic tells us he follows the old gods, since the only Northern family to follow the 7 are the Manderlys, but he might not be particularly devout. So I'd assume he too swore his vows in that grove. I think his fear of the wildlings were overruling whatever religious thought he might have when he protested the new recruits swearing there.

I wonder what the significance is, though, that he's actually of the North. I mean-- will it matter to the plot in some way? Because he'd make a lot more sense if he were a Southron Fool in a lot of ways, so why draw him subtly as a Northman?

Unrelated aside. I was just looking at that chapter where Jon brings the recruits to the weirgrove and came across this:

Edd: "Might need some butter to slide that one (Wun Wun) through the tunnel, m'lord. Should I send someone to the larder?"

Jon: "Oh, I think he'll fit. Unbuttered"

:lmao:

[Little Wing]

Unbutterbumps! :o

:lmao:

[Ingelheim]

Jon Snow...boring? No coments. LOL. The main history, the main plot is the invasion of the Others. And Jon is our eyes in that war.

[maesterted]

I dont think Bowen follows the old gods we see this in book five

This is wrong, Jon thought. “Stop.”

Emmett turned back, frowning. “My lord?”

“I will not hang him,” said Jon. “Bring him here.”

“Oh, Seven save us,” he heard Bowen Marsh cry out.

The smile that Lord Janos Slynt smiled then had all the sweetness of rancid butter.

Until Jon said, “Edd, fetch me a block,” and unsheathed Longclaw.

[The Fallen]

I have to agree with Butterbumps earlier point that Bowen would have been much more interesting had the racism and homophobia been left out. Because there is actually a rational point buried beneath all it. But the racism just overpowers any logic he might have been able to stand on and makes him thoroughly one-dimensional. He's not quite as much of a caricature as the Evil Z's in Mereen, but he's close enough.

I don't know, I think that crassness kind of fits with people like Bowen. They tend to be ignorant, and ignorant folks are always afraid of change. And, of course, they tend to hold on to old views and stereotypes. So I can't see Bowen being tolerant of others while at the same time being totally against them.

@Koststerg

The whole ending of that book threw me for a loop with the Ramsay letter, Jon's convo with Tormund, the assassination attempt, Mel just standing there watching, Ghost not being around and of course the Giant manhandling one of the Queen's men. I'm currently rereading AFfC and then will reread ADwD because I feel I'm missing some details.

[Harlaw's Book]

Count me in as one of those wondering about Marsh's background. I wonder if Jon represents to Marsh everything Marsh aspired to but failed to become. I lean toward Marsh volunteering for the NW. Based on his decision to lead the NW's forces at the Bridge of Skulls and that he quoted his uncle's advice about the high ground, I wonder if Marsh fancied himself a military genius that nobody ever gave a chance. If Marsh had combat aspirations, maybe he was also disappointed that he was chosen to be a steward instead of a ranger. He may have come to believe he became a steward because the NW needed his counting skills instead of being unfit for the rangers, and his promotion to First Steward possibly confirmed this belief.

Also can anyone clarify/confirm for me whether a Stark king defeated a Marsh king for control over the Neck and that there is a current House Marsh that Bowen was born into? I can't remember if I actually read that in the books or the wiki. If the information is accurate, I wonder whether his house background influences his character.