Littlefinger triggered Jeoffrey into beheading Ned Stark?

[Lord Martin]

Uh, no sir.

Stannis is still going to proclaim himself king. Renly and Loras have already ridden for high garden. Neither one of them is going to let the Lannisters take over. And Riverlands have already been invaded. Edmure is still an idiot which has been revealed to all. So Robb is still going to have to fight to expell the lannisters from the riverlands and he is going to have to chose to support Stannis, Renly or Joffrey. You're telling me the starks are going to fight for the Lannisters against Stannis with the Lannisters occupying and burning the riverlands? Nothing changes, if Eddard takes the black. The realm is fundamentally unstable:

1) illlegetitmate heirs to the thrown

2) a weak liege lord of the riverlands

3) a legitimate heir without support from many major houses.

That situation is untenable because neither Stannis nor Joffrey are viable succesors.

Yes, but if Ned lived to take the Black, he would have had time to tell Robb to support Stannis. That would be a whole other war. Renly may have done things differently and Robb would not have been raiding in the West, he would have coordinated with Stannis on the Blackwater.

With Ned alive, its just not the same war.

[The Other Others]

It might just have been spur of the moment action on Joffs part but someone probabily nudged him into it. And as the most likely of those someone's is LF,it's mostly right.

[The Other Others]

Yes, but if Ned lived to take the Black, he would have had time to tell Robb to support Stannis. That would be a whole other war. Renly may have done things differently and Robb would not have been raiding in the West, he would have coordinated with Stannis on the Blackwater.

With Ned alive, its just not the same war.

Stannis would have won in a few months even without Robbs help:Edmures blocking of the fords cost them both the war if my timings are right.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Yes, but if Ned lived to take the Black, he would have had time to tell Robb to support Stannis. That would be a whole other war. Renly may have done things differently and Robb would not have been raiding in the West, he would have coordinated with Stannis on the Blackwater.

With Ned alive, its just not the same war.

i didn't say the same war. i said. war. The point being that littlefinger didn't cause war, there was already going to be war.

[Thendel]

I definitely believe so - Littlefinger had a lot of motive, and as others have already noted, he has proven himself capable of playing Joffrey like a fiddle.

Moreover, one should look at how quick Janos Slynt and Ilyn Payne were to comply with Joffrey's order instead of at least turning to look for Cersei's approval. Almost as if someone had instructed them to beforehand...

• I grant you Payne could be put down to simply being very enthustiastic in carrying out his job. But then again, he was wielding Ice at the time. Wouldn't Littlefinger be one to find it fitting that Ned should be beheaded with the sword of House Stark, the family that has cost Littlefinger so much? Could he buy Payne by promising to make sure he was given a very nice sword? Would he even need to?
  
• Slynt, however, doesn't possess Payne's robotic adherence to his job. On the contrary, he is as corrupt as can be, and he's actively seeking influence with the ones in power. At this point, it was pretty obvious that Cersei was the one with the real power in King's Landing (actually, it's been like that for quite a while), yet Slynt doesn't seem to know or care?
  

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

I definitely believe so - Littlefinger had a lot of motive, and as others have already noted, he has proven himself capable of playing Joffrey like a fiddle.

Moreover, one should look at how quick Janos Slynt and Ilyn Payne were to comply with Joffrey's order instead of at least turning to look for Cersei's approval. Almost as if someone had instructed them to beforehand...

• I grant you Payne could be put down to simply being very enthustiastic in carrying out his job. But then again, he was wielding Ice at the time. Wouldn't Littlefinger be one to find it fitting that Ned should be beheaded with the sword of House Stark, the family that has cost Littlefinger so much? Could he buy Payne by promising to make sure he was given a very nice sword? Would he even need to?
  
• Slynt, however, doesn't possess Payne's robotic adherence to his job. On the contrary, he is as corrupt as can be, and he's actively seeking influence with the ones in power. At this point, it was pretty obvious that Cersei was the one with the real power in King's Landing (actually, it's been like that for quite a while), yet Slynt doesn't seem to know or care?
  

if littlefinger didn't have him killed i think we'll all have to seriously revaluate his intillegence level.

[evita mgfs]

Well that's exactly what Varys implies to Tyrion in Tyrion II, ACOK. :)

:agree: Exactly!

[jarl the climber]

What reason is Joffrey given for Lord Starks treason? Why would he think that Ned would turn against him? Joff did try and have Bran murdered, did he beleive Ned knew this and this was the reason? Also remember that Robb and joff had quarreled. Petyr had an agent with the Kings party. The person who dropped off the Myrish lens at luwins tower. The person who left it was not seen and the note was written in a code that only Lysa and Cat knew. Every precaution was taken, surely this agent was a competenty person. Perhaps Ser Brune attached himself to the Kings party. I think this person would have discreetly observed Lord Stark and his family as well as the royal family. Would he have accompanied Robert and Ned when they went hunting the day that Bran was pushed from the tower? Or would he have been more interested in the fact that Jaime and Cersei remained behind? Surely Varys must have had a little rat in the party as well. Probaly Varys and Petyr had a better idea of what was going on then Ned did even in regards to what happened at Winterfell. Thats reallty sad if you think about it.

[evita mgfs]

Wow! Good thoughts. I was trying to connect BR to some of these events, like Bran's fall. Did he break Bran's fall?

I also thought that no matter what, Jaime and Cersei violated the laws of hospitality while guests at WF. Jaime and Cersei deserve punishment from the old gods, if we are to believe that the laws of hospitality will be avenged. Maybe they are being punished in their storylines now?

Nice to read such well-thought out posts! Super!

[Hempen Dan the Ropemaker]

Another peice of evidence: the tyrion chapter where tywin tells everyone about the red wedding. Joffrey says something along the lines of "I'll have no mercy, a strong king acts boldly". Then tywin and cersei spend a little bit too much time talking about who told him those words. Cersei suspects Robert, but that section of dialogue seems a bit pointed and methinks Littlefinger said that to joff about Ned.

[The Night's Prince]

Aside from Varys implying it, we have the jousting dwarves at the Purple Wedding. LF explicitly tells Sansa how he manipulated Joffrey into going after Tyrion. I think we're supposed to put 2 and 2 together and figure out Ned's beheading.

Wow. And of course Sansa being so dense can't reason it out. This is laughable.

[Anwar]

Assuming of course he was telling her the whole truth and he wasn't partly BSing.

[Hear Us Roar]

Uh, no sir.

Stannis is still going to proclaim himself king. Renly and Loras have already ridden for high garden. Neither one of them is going to let the Lannisters take over. And Riverlands have already been invaded. Edmure is still an idiot which has been revealed to all. So Robb is still going to have to fight to expell the lannisters from the riverlands and he is going to have to chose to support Stannis, Renly or Joffrey. You're telling me the starks are going to fight for the Lannisters against Stannis with the Lannisters occupying and burning the riverlands? Nothing changes, if Eddard takes the black. The realm is fundamentally unstable:

1) illlegetitmate heirs to the thrown

2) a weak liege lord of the riverlands

3) a legitimate heir without support from many major houses.

That situation is untenable because neither Stannis nor Joffrey are viable succesors.

yeah i forgot to mention Stannis. Robb would not call his banners, if Ned gave his word. The North would stay out of the war. That means the Grejoys do not attack the North as their entire force is there. Greyjoys and Northmen out. The riverlords would stay out as well, not to hard to make them stand down at this point as they were basically conquered before Robb swooped in . Lysa still keeps the Vale out. That leaves the Stag brothers. Mellisandre's shadow kills Renly as usual. Stannis take's stormland forces and goes to the blackwater. The Tyrell/Lannister alliance intact would smash Stannis much more easily as they do not have to contend with the Riverlords or the North. Stannis would retreat to Dragonstone, he cannot sail anywhere as the North would not welcome him, nor the Vale or the Riverlands. There with the undivided attention of the Lannisters and Tyrells he is besieged and eventually killed.

At that point with peace at hand, Westeros learns of Dany and her dragons. They invade essos in full force like the war of the Tenpenny kings, and destroy her while her dragons are still small.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

So you agree with me, no matter what there's still a war.

yeah i forgot to mention Stannis. Robb would not call his banners, if Ned gave his word. The North would stay out of the war. That means the Grejoys do not attack the North as their entire force is there. Greyjoys and Northmen out. The riverlords would stay out as well, not to hard to make them stand down at this point as they were basically conquered before Robb swooped in . Lysa still keeps the Vale out. That leaves the Stag brothers. Mellisandre's shadow kills Renly as usual. Stannis take's stormland forces and goes to the blackwater. The Tyrell/Lannister alliance intact would smash Stannis much more easily as they do not have to contend with the Riverlords or the North. Stannis would retreat to Dragonstone, he cannot sail anywhere as the North would not welcome him, nor the Vale or the Riverlands. There with the undivided attention of the Lannisters and Tyrells he is besieged and eventually killed.

At that point with peace at hand, Westeros learns of Dany and her dragons. They invade essos in full force like the war of the Tenpenny kings, and destroy her while her dragons are still small.

but still....Uhhhh....... No......

Robb had already called his banners. Robb doesn't find out about Ned's death until he's retaken Riverrun.

What do you mean the Riverlords would stay out? How did they get in the war in the first place? Tywin Lannister invaded their lands. So... the Riverlords are have still been invaded... they're still pissed off. Edmure is still a prisoner of the Lannisters.... all of that happened BEFORE Ned lost his head.

And seriously you think Robb and Catelyn Stark would let the Lannisters do whatever they want to the Riverlands?

NEXT?

Lysa Still keeps the Vale out? Do you really think Lysa is calling ths shots in the Vale? The main reason to keep the Vale out of the war is to keep the Starks and Tullys from winning. If the Starks and Tully, are theoretically out, (which could never happen, since the Riverlands are inbetween everyone else) then the Vale becomes a much larger % of the total military power, if Petyr is around still the Vale will fight with the Lannisters & Tyrells against Stannis.

[Lord_Tyrell]

Agreed that Littlefinger was the one who told Joffrey to kill Ned. "The soft hearts of women" seems like something that would more come out of Littlefinger's mouth than Joffrey's. Seems he probably told Joffrey to do that, and then when he argued about what Cersei told him to do and the favor he swore Sansa, he told him that and that he should flay Ned for his crimes, but that would be the act of mercy he would show Sansa is a clean death for her father. Joffrey would have quite liked that idea and not tell anyone else about it for fear of intervention.

[Naathi Prince]

I thought it was pretty clear on the reread that Littlefinger was behind this. While Joffrey certainly had a mind of his own, look at the way Slynt (Littlefinger's man) moves so quickly to push Ned onto the block.

[willowbark]

I can't remember when, perhaps during the walk of shame chapter, but I thought I read Cercei remembering that Little Finger had asked for permission to wed Sansa right after the beheading. If I'm remembering that correctly, that is.

[Scipio Africanus]

Agreed that Littlefinger was the one who told Joffrey to kill Ned. "The soft hearts of women" seems like something that would more come out of Littlefinger's mouth than Joffrey's. Seems he probably told Joffrey to do that, and then when he argued about what Cersei told him to do and the favor he swore Sansa, he told him that and that he should flay Ned for his crimes, but that would be the act of mercy he would show Sansa is a clean death for her father. Joffrey would have quite liked that idea and not tell anyone else about it for fear of intervention.

I thought it was pretty clear on the reread that Littlefinger was behind this. While Joffrey certainly had a mind of his own, look at the way Slynt (Littlefinger's man) moves so quickly to push Ned onto the block.

LF wouldn't never directly tell Joff to execute Eddard. He'd probably quip and make off remarks, like "your grandfather knew how to deal with rebels" and "the people look that a king would deal decisively with a rebel; sparing such a man in front of a crowd after hearing his confession to his crimes would look weak".

Joff would've remembered those remarks in front of the temple, and with his own little psychotic mind would've wanted to look tough and big, and ordered Eddard's execution despite any objections.

[Lord_Tyrell]

Another peice of evidence: the tyrion chapter where tywin tells everyone about the red wedding. Joffrey says something along the lines of "I'll have no mercy, a strong king acts boldly". Then tywin and cersei spend a little bit too much time talking about who told him those words. Cersei suspects Robert, but that section of dialogue seems a bit pointed and methinks Littlefinger said that to joff about Ned.

Yep. I think Joff still had an argument with Littlefinger due to what all his other council members, his mother, and what he promised his betrothed. Littlefinger refuted all of them easily and made Joffrey feel like a coward if he wouldn't go through with killing Ned. I'm guessing he said that hiw own people would rise up against him if they thought they could get away with their head intact.

[The Dragon King]

I don't think this would have worked for him. He was in the friendzone, but if he killed Cat's hubby, Cat would go Warrior Queen all over the Lannisters, and he'd have a war instead of a Catelyn. I think his original plan was to have Ned sent to the Wall with no way to interact with Catelyn. Catelyn, as a widow, would be less marriageable and within the reach of a rather wealthy though not very highborn minor noble like himself. Since Petyr was Cat's childhood friend, and Cat would be pressured to find a husband, Petyr would be an easy option for her, and with a bit more tweaking and a murder or two, Petyr would be Mr. Catelyn Tully. The scary part is that this might have worked if Joff hadn't gone nutty and killed Ned.

If we operate on the assumption that Petyr had already given up on Catelyn and set his sights on Sansa (he apparently asked Cersei for a marriage), then your scenario is absolutely plausible and more than likely what actually happened.

There's no reason Cat couldn't live near the Wall and meet with Ned in Mole town for regular gold digging. The Starks are loved by the watch and they'd certainly turn a blind eye to that, even if Ned wanted to be celibate for the rest of his life he could still get word to Cat if he joined the Watch.

Also, why would there be pressure on Cat to remarry? Robb would be her liege lord and marry her to whom he chose, or no one at all.