Who fathered Ashara Dayne's child ?

[y ddraig]

Last week on A Soap of Ice and Fire:

Aerys Targaryen is the father of Ashara's baby. He saw her dance with a few men and decided he wanted her, and because he's the king, she couldn't say no. At the same time, Elia sees her husband crown Lyanna Queen of Love and Beauty and becomes increasingly aware that she needs to give Rhaegar a son. She becomes pregnant, but there are complications. She has a stillborn daughter, while Ashara gives birth to a healthy, very Targaryen-looking son. They make a pact to pass off Ashara's bastard as Elia's son by Rhaegar and pretend the stillborn daughter was Ashara's. Ashara, dishonoured, returns to Starfall. Rhaegar, meanwhile, learns that Elia can have no more children, or alternatively, he learns about the baby switch. This gives him green light to seek out Lyanna. Cue Robert's Rebellion. When Ashara learns that Elia and Aegon - her son - are being held hostage in King's Landing, she goes looking for ('turns to') Ned, whom she knows to be a decent guy, and asks him for help. She offers him a deal: bring me back my son, and I'll tell you where your sister is. She is Arthur Dayne's sister after all, and the Tower of Joy is in Dorne. She probably knew something. Ned agrees, but things go awry, and in the end, Rhaegar, Elia, Rhaenys, Aegon, Lyanna, and Arthur are all dead. Ashara is left with her grief. Then, suddenly she learns that Varys switched Aegon and is looking for a band of outlaws to raise him. Ashara agrees and fakes her suicide. The catch: Varys thinks he saved Rhaegar's son, but Rhaegar never had a son. Aegon is, and has always been, Ashara's bastard by Aerys. On with the show.

Too soapy? You think so? Lol.

[Lion of Judah]

Ashara Dayne's sister Allyria Dayne seems convinced that Ned was the father of her child and the man she was in love with. So until we know differently I would take her word over mere speculation.

[corbon]

Ashara Dayne's sister Allyria Dayne seems convinced that Ned was the father of her child and the man she was in love with. So until we know differently I would take her word over mere speculation.

How old is she?

She has been betrothed to Beric DOndarrion for years, yet still not married - rather suggests she is quite young.

So how does she know about events nearly 20 years ago?

Probably not first hand.

[Buried Treasure]

Ashara Dayne's sister Allyria Dayne seems convinced that Ned was the father of her child and the man she was in love with. So until we know differently I would take her word over mere speculation.

We've not met Allyria, all we have is what she told her 12 year old nephew. She told him that Wylla was Jon's mother and Ashara & Ned were in love. Two seemingly contradictory statements, that a 12 year old might not think to question and perhaps speculate that at the very least the Wylla part is probably a cover story. It's an unknown whether Allyria herself believed that version of events and passed it onto Edric in good faith or if she knew more and was lying to him.

"If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me [barristan Selmy] instead of Stark? He would never know. But of all his failures, none haunted Barristan Selmy so much as that.

I've not seen much discussion in this thread of the timing element of this line. It would have been reasonable for Barristan to think that if he crowned Ashara she would have looked to him whilst they were still at Harrenhal, it would be less reasonable for Barristan to think Ashara would look to him several months after the tourney ended, just because he made her queen of love and beauty once. That suggests to me that she looked to the Stark towards the end of the tourney (around the time she conceived) rather than months afterwards.

[Lion of Judah]

How old is she?

She has been betrothed to Beric DOndarrion for years, yet still not married - rather suggests she is quite young.

So how does she know about events nearly 20 years ago?

Probably not first hand.

And Ned is absolutely not the father because?

We've not met Allyria, all we have is what she told her 12 year old nephew. She told him that Wylla was Jon's mother and Ashara & Ned were in love. Two seemingly contradictory statements, that a 12 year old might not think to question and perhaps speculate that at the very least the Wylla part is probably a cover story. It's an unknown whether Allyria herself believed that version of events and passed it onto Edric in good faith or if she knew more and was lying to him.

"If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me [barristan Selmy] instead of Stark? He would never know. But of all his failures, none haunted Barristan Selmy so much as that.

I've not seen much discussion in this thread of the timing element of this line. It would have been reasonable for Barristan to think that if he crowned Ashara she would have looked to him whilst they were still at Harrenhal, it would be less reasonable for Barristan to think Ashara would look to him several months after the tourney ended, just because he made her queen of love and beauty once. That suggests to me that she looked to the Stark towards the end of the tourney (around the time she conceived) rather than months afterwards.

This is what makes me question what he says, but we have no idea why Allyria would lie to him. We know Brandon asked her to dance with Ned, but no info on what happened before or after. Ned thought enough of her to bring her Dawn after the events at the Tower Of Joy, why make her a priority when you have your dead sister and a baby that you need to get back to WF? Could be an array of possibilities here, my guess is he did it because they were in love but it could be wrong.

[Unholly Septon]

I don't think it matters whether Ashara is alive or not. Barristan's point of view is the only one we have to go on to provide us the idea that she may have loved the person who "dishonored" her (from his perspective).

Why does Barristan believe she might have loved this "Stark" so much? Well, I doubt he never interacted with her. She was a lady at court, and he would have seen her often, participated in the social life at court as his duties permitted, and so on. Truth be told, the rumors of her relationship with a Stark must have existed in King's Landing, and surely must have been sourced from Ashara's circle of acquaintances. That's certainly much nearer the core of it than washing women in Winterfell and Cersei Lannister (who was at Casterly Rock by the time of Harrenhal).

And no, I don't believe Ashara is Lemore. She's at least 5 years too old (Tyrion puts her at past 40), the failure to note her eyes as violet is quite strange when everyone else with violet eyes is noted, Griff thinks of her as "Lady Lemore" in his thoughts, and Varys clearly supports the idea that her purpose is to educate Young Griff in the Faith -- not exactly the thing you'd imagine a typical noble lady in Westeros would be specifically tasked with. I suppose one can imagine that she went into a motherhouse and became a septa

Anyways, Ashara Dayne is Quaithe of Asshai.

It is known.

No,I think Quaithe is the Seastar girl(Bloodraven's half sister and beloved).We know she was a witch and her name contains the word ''star'' and Danny in her last chapter of ADWD dreamed of her and thought that ''the stars are her mask or something.In our subject now:I think Ashara is dead indeed.There is a dark secret about her,but Darkstar may know something...

[ckal]

Note that Barristan believes that it's possible Ashara died out of "grief" for the man who had "dishonored" her. This doesn't mean he thinks she killed herself for grief at having been dishonored -- but at grief for the man, because he's lost to her or he's dead. I.E., Barristan believes she may have loved whoever it was.

Can anyone imagine a scenario where Ashara loved Aerys? Especially those who believe he raped her? And taking into account his insanity, his cruelty, his madness that left him so paranoid he wouldn't let anyone cut his hair or trim his nails... ?

I believe Brandon Stark and Ashara Dayne had a fling at Harrenhal, a fling that everyone sort of pinned on Ned for various reasons.

I like this. Sounds reasonable.

[Quiet Isle]

Linda and Elio feel pretty sure it was Brandon Stark. That he went up to get her to dance with his little shy brother Ned, and she was entranced by him. and he was the Wild Wolf. Ned got screwed by Brandon = Brandon took the girl he wanted, then Brandon dies after acting like an idiot racing up to KL and screaming for Rhaegar, and leaves Ned to pick up the pieces. Ned never wanted to be the Lord at WF, and he had to marry Catelyn. And then Ashara ostensibly has a baby and she dies.

[Melpomene]

I'll say Brandon Stark. It wasn't the first time he bedded a highborn lady.

Brandon was engaged to Cat, and it was claimed (according to Dustin) that he didn't want to marry her. So it might be no wonder, if we bring up his assumed personality, that he would try to have some fun before the marriage.

If Ashara did die from mourning over the loss of the baby as well as the lover, then it can still fit: Brandon and her got together, Brandon dies. Ashara in grief, bores his only known living child reminiscent of his memory only to have it die too, leaving Ashara to even more grief. On top of that, she is considered dishonoured.

Even if Ned liked Ashara, maybe Ashara prefered someone else and rejected Ned, leaving her and Brandon the opportunity to hook up. Or maybe Ned was later too shy and reminded himself of his own future betrothal and decided to be good, or had gotten to know Ashara and realized he didn't like her anyway, leaving Brandon with a "Oh alright then, if you won't hit that I will, weee!"

There is that little clue that a Stark was titled as the one to leave her with child. Genuinely can't see Ned to such a thing, Rickard was older, likely far away, Lyanna was a girl, allegedly kidnapped and preggers herself so impregnating another female might have been kinda hard, the five Stark kids were either just babies or not even born yet.....leaving Brandon left, and possibly Benjen (Hey, could happen, right? could be a reason why he chose the wall. Oohhh new theory)

The whole thing of "Ned and Ashara were in love" is really speculation/rumours.....afterall, there are two other rumours about Ned's lover's and Jon's apparent mother's (Wylla and the fisherman's daughter) Poor him, Ned's love life seems to be completely all over the place during those years :ohwell: he probably didn't do anything whatsoever, but gets to be the one with the little reputations.

Anyway, for now, Brandon Stark it is. And maybe in a long far away chance, Benjen...?

[Ser Pollo Loco]

I don't think it was Brandon, 1) it's not really a move (most) brothers would make if Ned had a thing for her and 2) The Tully's had to have been at Harrenhall

[corbon]

I don't think it was Brandon, 1) it's not really a move (most) brothers would make if Ned had a thing for her and 2) The Tully's had to have been at Harrenhall

1) relies on assuming that Ned had a thing for her first, for which we have zero indication

2) They weren't it seems. Catelyn wasn't. I don't know why Hoster wasn't, but he isn't mentioned at all. Possibly he was too old-school and not invited to a tourney set up to canvas support for a Rhaegar take-over? Edmure would have been too young as well.

[Ran]

Indeed. The fact is that all we know is that Ned wanted to dance with her (but then, who didn't?) They danced, and... well, we don't know. For all we know, Ned never really loved Ashara, or had anything more than a mild infatuation for the fairest maid at Aerys's court.

People keep acting as if Ashara was this object that Ned laid claim to, as if Ashara didn't have desires or a will of her own. If she wanted Brandon, well then.

The Tullys are never mentioned as being at Harrenhal. It's a curious thing, and never really explained.

Rhaegar taking over was not in the cards at that time, I think. Seems pretty clear Rhaegar finally decided

[AvengerofWinterfell]

Brandon Stark!

[Theon The Hungry Wolf]

I believe Ned was the father of her child and Ashara's lover. I think Brandon got the two to dance and drink some cups of wine before leaving them alone in a tent and letting them 'get down'.

Ned looked up to Brandon and thought him a good guy, I cannot see him having this opinion if he went and had sex with the girl he liked/loved. I believe he was planning on telling his father his plans the marry her, before the 'abduction' of Lyanna happened and there was no chance. Ned was forced to marry Catelyn and then went off to war. He slayed Arthur Dayne with Howland Reed and then went to Starfall to return Dawn and say his goodbyes to Ashara. Whilst there, Wylla breastfed Jon, the newborn.

[Ser Pollo Loco]

Indeed. The fact is that all we know is that Ned wanted to dance with her (but then, who didn't?) They danced, and... well, we don't know. For all we know, Ned never really loved Ashara, or had anything more than a mild infatuation for the fairest maid at Aerys's court.

People keep acting as if Ashara was this object that Ned laid claim to, as if Ashara didn't have desires or a will of her own. If she wanted Brandon, well then.

The Tullys are never mentioned as being at Harrenhal. It's a curious thing, and never really explained.

Rhaegar taking over was not in the cards at that time, I think. Seems pretty clear Rhaegar finally decided

I agree with your first paragraph, how deep Ned's interest goes is unclear, as far as your second I agree Ned had no claim on Ashara and a women has the right to choose, but it seems Ned did express an interest and the choice works both ways. If Ashara did express an interest in Brandon, he's not obligated to reciprocate. It would seem out of character for him to say no, but his loyalty to his family leads him to commit arguably one of the stupidest acts in the book (come out and die). That said if it was a Stark who dishonored her it was most likely Brandon, and who ever it was Ned seems instrumental in covering it up.

[tze]

The Tullys are never mentioned as being at Harrenhal. It's a curious thing, and never really explained.

Just throwing an idea out there---do we know when, exactly, Lady Minisa died? All I remember Catelyn saying is that she died giving birth, but I don't think it's ever been specified in the books when exactly that was. Catelyn remembers her mother being ill when the Tully children/Littlefinger were young, but that doesn't indicate when exactly she died. If Lady Tully had recently died when the tourney was held, that would provide a plausible reason for the Tullys to skip the tourney.

And given that Minisa was a Whent, perhaps that was one reason Aerys smelled a rat at the Tourney of Harrenhal? In other words, he saw that House Whent had recently lost a member (and should logically be in mourning), but was instead throwing what was essentially a giant party. Therefore, he assumed (or was told by, say, Varys) that the tourney had to have a pretty earth-shattering ulterior purpose (i.e., overthrowing the king) for the Whents to be acting so strangely?

[Lion of Judah]

How long after Brandon died did Ashara commit suicide?

[Veltigar]

There are three options:

1) Brandon Stark

2) Ned Stark

=> Both have been discussed

3) Crackpot: Oberyn Martell => He was there at the tourney, he danced with Ashara and we all know that he never said no to a girl ;-)

Now, if we assume that Ashara = Septa Lemore and that her child was a girl (but not stillborn) we get one of the sandsnakes (I forgot her name maybe Tyene?).

*Anyway, IMO I think it's most likely that Brandon was the father but if that isn't the case, I would take a bet on Oberyn

[targaryensarebamf]

My theory:

1) Ashara Dayne is still alive. I will not speculate who her child is as everyone has very different ideas, but I do believe she is Septa Lemore.

2) Not quite sure how this works in the timeline or map, but is it possible that when she threw herself into the sea, she was picked up on Griff's boat and that's how she got with him?

[MoriganUlva]

How long after Brandon died did Ashara commit suicide?

A year after Brandon's death