Definitely dead/Almost certainly living?

[The Angels' Prophet]

Wow, seems like people aren't much a fan of this theory, eh? I'm kind of apprehensive about this...

Ah, what the heck do I got to lose?

So, first and foremost, I can't quote anything. I have no books on me, so I'm going strictly off of memory here. So, forgive me if I mess up on a few facts.

Secondly, I really should be posting this as a Guest Essay on Tower of the Hand. But I don't think I'm allowed. So, yeah, I'll try to make it brief, but I'm making no promises here. On with my brief...whatever you wanna call it

Similarities we can strike between Darkstar and Rhaegar

-Appearence

This cannot be denied. If Aurene Waters looked enough like Rhaegar to make Cersei do a double take, Darkstar would probably give her a heart attack. Rhaegar had the silver hair that Targs were famous for, and deep, lilac eyes. Cersei described him as beautiful. Darkstar has an aquiline nose, high cheekbones, and also has silver hair and deep liliac eyes. The only "problem" is that Darkstar has a streak of black hair. A problem, you say? Look at Sansa Stark! Hell, even look at "Aegon". Dye in in Westeros ( well, more specifically in Essos, but still). Maybe he just felt like dyeing it like that. Maybe he thought it looked cool. This is not evidence, by any means.

-Hatred of the Lannisters

This is more logical reasoning then evidence, but still. Think about it. Right now, who in the world would Rhaegar most like to take vengeance on? The Lannisters, for killing Elia Martell, his wife, and, more importantly, his children. You could argue that he would hate Robert, but let's look at it from a logical standpoint: Rhaegar was, or is, an intenlligent man. He would likely know that Robert didn't order the deaths of his wife and children. And besides, attacking the King of Westeros isn't exactly the wisest decision he could take. Let's also remember that Rhaegar seemed to agree with Robert on at least one thing: His father could be King no longer, as seen from Jamie's last memory of him. Rhaegar likely just got defensive because Robert was going around calling Rhaegar a rapist and a murderer. Besides Rhaegar's hatred of the Lannisters, think about this: Why would Darkstar hate the Lannisters? Okay, there might be, I suppose. We don't know enough about Darkstar yet. But keep that in consideration.

-Names

Okay, I'm talking what do the names Rhaegar, Gerold, and Dayne all have in common? Or at least, how can we connect Gerold and Dayne to Rhaegar?

Very, Very simply, actually.

Gerold Hightower and Arthur Dayne were both friends with Rhaegar, with Rhaegar being closer to Arthur. I mean, come on. GRRM would NEVER, reuse names like this, without a reason. Think of all the creative names he has created in the past. It doesn't make that much sense.

How Rhaegar Could Have Survived

-Sent a Double

Now, I KNOW what you are all thinking. "A double? Like THAT hasn't been said before." Okay, Okay, hear me out. The way I see it, it could have gone something like this, the whole scenario how Rhaegar survived.

We already know that Rhaegar thought his father needed to be overthrown. He said as much to Jaime. He talked it over with Lyanna, and they agreed on a plan. Rhaegar would send a decoy, perhaps the real Gerold Dayne if he ever existed, I don't know. He would send him North to the Trident to confront Robert. If he won, all well and good. If he lost, at least Rhaegar wasn't dead. The only reason Rhaegar cared so much was because Lyanna was pregnant with his child, whom he though was the fabled third head of the dragon. He couldn't die. After the news came back that "Rhaegar" was dead, the real Rhaegar went South to Dorne, to establish his new identity given to him by Arthur Dayne, leaving Dayne, Hightower, and Darry to protect Lyanna and his baby. Eddard Stark returned to the ToJ after the Sack of King's Landing to look for his sister. Loyal to their last breaths, the Kingsguard knights defended Lyanna with all their might, but ultimately failed and died. Ned went into the Tower itself and found his sister dying from childbirth. She handed him the baby ya da ya da ya da "promise me Ned." ( I've read this a thousand times.) and died. Ned went to Starfall and returned Dawn. Rhaegar went up back to the ToJ, and realized Lyanna was dead, and thought his child dead too. He also found out Elia and his children were dead as well. He blamed the Lannisters, and sought vengeance on them.

Opposing Evidence,

Some, even on this board, have stated that Darkstar is too young to be Rhaegar. To that, I say this was Rhaegar fricking Targaryen, known by many to be the most beautiful man in Westeros. I find it easy to believe he would have been attractive at age thirty nine ( I imagine Rhaegar to be Twenty Two when he "died")

Gods, I'm Bloody tired.I'll finish this tommorrow, okay?

Toodles.

[spudspotato]

Lyanna, Rhaegar, Robert, Tywin, Tyrek Lannister, Robb and Syrio are all certainly dead (off the top of my head.)

Gregor Clegane, Sandor Clegane, and Catelyn are all alive.

[The Kraken's Sweet Maiden]

After Aegon's return, I'm willing to at least considering many of these survival theories.

[Florina Laufeyson]

Theres a theory floating around about how Rhaegar's rubies were glamored. All but one of those rubies wound up on the Quiet Isle.

Still, i think its rubbish. And i dont want to think of Rhaegar as hammy ass Darkstar.

[redviper9]

<snip>

It always amazes when folks want to argue that Rhaegar or Lyanna are alive.

Rhaegar is dead (and so is Lyanna). Unless he and this hypothetical double were identical twins, there's no way that anyone on the Trident would have been fooled after Robert's hammer found its mark. This isn't like (F)Aegon, who's relying on the fact that Gregor Clegane left the corpse's face unrecognizable; Rhaegar was hit square in the chest, with his facial features left intact. Furthermore, how would his fake death serve the story? His and Lyanna's deaths are two of the critical pillars upon which ASOIAF is built. Finding out that Rhaegar is alive at this point in the game would be like Harry Potter finding out in book six that his parents were actually alive and well: the entire story comes crumbling down. And I find it hard to believe that Rhaegar would willingly go from the noble and melancholic silver prince to Westeros's answer to Daario Naharis. This is not to say that Darkstar isn't connected to the larger storyline. But come on, Rhaegar?

After Aegon's return, I'm willing to at least considering many of these survival theories.

His return is far from proven. All we know right now is that there some kid out there claiming to be Aegon VI, but enough hints are dropped by GRRM to indicate that he's an imposter, and possibly a Blackfyre.

[Lightstar]

Shiera Seastar appears in the Dunk and Egg stories. She was Bloodraven's half-sister and love of his life.

My list of dead/not-so-dead/alive:

Ned Stark: Definitely dead.

Brandon Stark and Rickard Stark: Definitely dead.

Rhaegar Targaryen: Definitely dead.

Lyanna Stark: Definitely dead.

Tywin Lannister: Dead as a doornail.

Ashara Dayne: Questionable.

Elia Martell: Definitely dead.

Rhaenys Targaryen (Rhaegar's daughter): Toast.

Benjen Stark: MIA/Unknown.

Howland Reed: Kicking ass and taking names in the Neck.

Arthur Dayne: Frog Fu'd to DEATH.

Gerold Hightower: See above.

Willem Darry: Died of Dysentery.

Catelyn Stark: Undead.

Beric Dondarrion: Final Death.

Sandor Clegane: Most Likely Alive.

Syrio Forel: Impaled By Wooden Swords.

Mad King Aerys: Jaime'd to Death!

Aegon Targaryen VI: Alive Until Proven Otherwise.

Viserys Targaryen: Crowned. TO DEATH.

Quentyn Martell: Rhaegal's Dornish BBQ Recipe.

Rickon Stark: Alive On Magical Skagosi Adventures Until Proven Otherwise.

Robb Stark: Beastman Death.

Jon Snow: Stabby Stabby/Fate Unknown.

Ned Stark: Definitely dead and headless.

Brandon Stark and Rickard Stark: Toast.

Rhaegar Targaryen: I happen to like the Rhaegar is Darkstar theory, hidden away by Doran and the Dayne family with the knowledge he has a son alive keeping him going, but now emo since everyone he's ever loved is dead. Odds: 30%... I think Darkstar is someone more than 'Gerold Dayne'

Lyanna Stark: Definitely dead. Theon saw her in his dream of dead Starks, she gone, but I wonder how...

Tywin Lannister: Dead twice as bad, thanks to Oberyn.

Ashara Dayne: I think Ashara is alive somewhere. Likely Lemore. Odds: 80%

Elia Martell: Definitely dead.

Rhaenys Targaryen (Rhaegar's daughter): Dead. Poor girl.

Benjen Stark: I tend to believe he's alive, kicking some serious ass. Though it's quite possible he did some awesome shit then died and maybe became Coldhands. Odds of life: 60%

Howland Reed: Definitely alive. GRRM has said as much.

Arthur Dayne: I have a feeling one of either Rhaegar or Arthur Dayne is alive. Arthur has either become Darkstar (which is why he's so obsessed with 'Dawn' or he went to the wall and took the identity of Mance Rayder. Possibly the father of Jon. I like the A + L = J theory. Odds: 50%

Gerold Hightower: Dead.

Willem Darry: Confirmed dead.

Catelyn Stark: Undead.

Beric Dondarrion: Def dead.

Sandor Clegane: I'd be shocked if he weren't alive as the grave digger. Odds: 99%

Syrio Forel: Not definite, but I think he's Jaqen. Odds: 70%

Mad King Aerys: Dead as shit.

Aegon Targaryen VI: Alive at least in name, but odds he's actually THE Aegon... 55%

Viserys Targaryen: Crowned. TO DEATH.

Quentyn Martell: Rhaegal's Dornish BBQ Recipe.

Rickon Stark: He's fo sho alive. Odds: 100%

Robb Stark: GRRM wouldn't go through the agony of the Red Wedding to bring him back. Dead.

Jon Snow: Limbo. He'll at least warg Ghost or something else close by. My pet theory is I think he'll eventually warg Stannis. Odds of living: 99%

[The Undefeated Gaul]

Can't believe that people think Ned is alive... But then again maybe Varys switched him just to ensure the war started to make it wasier for Faegon. NOT

[The Dragon has three heads]

It always amazes when folks want to argue that Rhaegar or Lyanna are alive.

Rhaegar is dead (and so is Lyanna). Unless he and this hypothetical double were identical twins, there's no way that anyone on the Trident would have been fooled after Robert's hammer found its mark. This isn't like (F)Aegon, who's relying on the fact that Gregor Clegane left the corpse's face unrecognizable; Rhaegar was hit square in the chest, with his facial features left intact. Furthermore, how would his fake death serve the story? His and Lyanna's deaths are two of the critical pillars upon which ASOIAF is built. Finding out that Rhaegar is alive at this point in the game would be like Harry Potter finding out in book six that his parents were actually alive and well: the entire story comes crumbling down. And I find it hard to believe that Rhaegar would willingly go from the noble and melancholic silver prince to Westeros's answer to Daario Naharis. This is not to say that Darkstar isn't connected to the larger storyline. But come on, Rhaegar?

His return is far from proven. All we know right now is that there some kid out there claiming to be Aegon VI, but enough hints are dropped by GRRM to indicate that he's an imposter, and possibly a Blackfyre.

Look from a writers perspective the development Rhaegar has in just about every single POV is exceptional for him and to a lesser extent lyana to not be introduced at some point. However.

I think that in and of itself is a device to keep us thinking about what has happened to both of them and their possible children and what secrets Ned died with. We haven't seen Howland Reed yet, and until we do we will Not have another eye witness account of the TOJ. As its assumed Edric Daynes tale to Arya about wyla is a red herring.

Perhaps GRRM under estimated people in being able to figure out R+L=J early on but he can't go back now and unless it's very VERY well explained people will cry bloody murder if either of them are alive, OR Jon is NOT their child.

To prove he's alive you're going to need to establish what happened after the trident, a who identified him, how fallible this person was or is and lastly WHY he chose to stay hidden and not go to Danny and viserys in th last 15 years.

I don't like your chances.

[Florina Laufeyson]

Lightstar....

:lmao: :rofl:

Some of those a bit far fetched. :P

Also i agree with redviper in regards to Rhaegar. I love that character but i do NOT want him to still be alive.

[LdyStark]

Varys switched The Ned with a little (big) bird. Ned is living comfortably under the castle

Then he died when Cersei burned the tower down.

[The Undefeated Gaul]

Then he died when Cersei burned the tower down.

This. LOL

[ArabellaVidal]

I will never read GRRM again if it turns out that Ned, Lyanna and Rhaegar are alive.

Darkstar is a great character but his obsession with Dawn need not necessarily be because he's Arthur Dayne. Dawn is the sword that the Daynes bequeath to whoever they believe is worthy of the title 'the Sword of the Morning'. Without Dawn, Arthur Dayne was a great swordsman, with it he was undefeatable. That is enugh reason for every single Dayne to want that sword.

That brings us to the question of whether or not Arthur Dayne is alive. It's possible but it's equally possible that Howland Reed was somehow responsible for his death. Remember Meera's darts? I believe that GRRM has set up several examples of how by the use of tricks and cunning the odds can be overturned. Ser Loras defeated Gregor with the use of a trick. He later accused Brienne of the same thing when he lost to her in a fight. Oberyn Martell might have been hugged to death by the Mountain but not before he was able to poison him thoroughly enough to kill him.

As for Varys somehow arranging Ned's substitution to save him - really? Varys is clever but not omnipotent. NO ONE, except possibly Littlefinger, knew that Joffrey would order an execution rather than do as pre-arranged and send Ned to the Wall. Varys could arguably have saved Aegon because he would have had time to arrange this from when Aerys refused to let Elia and her children escape King's Landing. That could be foreseen because Aerys was mad enough to have ordered their execution himself and Elia might have agreed to such a scheme.

Already Varys has miscalculated that (Fake?)Aegon's upbringing as Young Griff will make him more likely to listen.

And if Sandor Clegane is not alive, GRRM is cruel to have given such glaring clues to his continued existance.

[Spinozaad]

I hope, probably in vain, that all characters who were last seen with mortal wounds were, in fact, mortally wounded. Too many zombies/switched personas running around as it is. I also kind of hope that prophecies are just bull, and that Jon is just Ned's bastard son.

I'll concede the possibility that Sandor is still alive, but he's "dead" story-wise.

[Dark Heart]

Almost certainly alive :

Jon Snow,

Bloodraven,

Sandor Clegane,

Aegon Targaryen (I just don't see a reason for Varys to lie about it to dying Kevan)

Probably alive:

Ashara Dayne,

Benjen Stark

I'd like if they were alive:

Syrio Forel

And my personal pet (crackpot) theory :

Jaqen H'ghar is a son of Daemon Blackfyre or Daemon Blackfyre himself.

(well, I told you it's crackpot)

My list of dead/not-so-dead/alive:

*snip*

This list made me smile. Very nice and colorful description.

[hughie]

I am now interested in the theory that King Aerys is still alive. He killed Jaime and put on his clothes and...

No, it doesn't work

[Aldora92]

I believe Varys knows (almost) everything, and he certainly could have seen Jof ordering Neds head on a platter.

I believe Melisandre is working with him to restore the Targs, only she focused on getting to Jon while Varys paved the way for an invasion. Melisandre, as we know, has the power to change other peoples appearances, and could easily have switched Ned, if they are after the Targs ruling, Ned is only one generation away from a Targ himself, that is his nephew, Jon. Ned always puts honor and justice above all, he is helping to restore the Targs.

[Bear Island Bruiser]

Ned is well and truly dead. His head was cut off. OK so Sansa after seeing her father's head dipped in tar and stuck on a spike said it didn't look like him, well minus a body, rotting a bit and covered in tar it isn't going to and Catelyn said the bones were too small accept she said they seemed too small as in Ned was a big part of her life and it lools too small for the man he was, as in he's a big figure in her life and in the North but actually he was never supposed to physically be a big man.

The biggest thing is if Ned is alive and active is that he's sat around and watched one of his daughters humilated at the hands of a king he knows is the product of incest, then married to a dwarf who he despises and then disappear, the other daughter run off to God knows where, his eldest son and heir killed and corpse defiled, his wife killed and his youngest 2 sons at worst killed at best disappeared (assuming he knew Theon was lying). Equally he's seen Theon, who he at least liked, turn against hima nd the North handed over to the Boltons oh plus he's seen his ancestral home burnt down. All this and he's done nothing? If Varys has spirited him away he'd have to have kept him in Essos or a cell and far away from anyone who could give him the slightest hint of what's going on. Way, way too much.

[The Angels' Prophet]

To prove he's alive you're going to need to establish what happened after the trident, a who identified him, how fallible this person was or is and lastly WHY he chose to stay hidden and not go to Danny and viserys in th last 15 years.

I don't like your chances.

Actually the first few are quite simple. First off, who was left to identify Rhaegar? MAYBE Tywin, but that's about it.

And also, this is Robert Baratheon we're talking about. Do you honestly believe he just hit Rhaegar once with his hammer (The killing blow) and just let him be? I imagine he probably hit him half a hundred times before he was done. Of course, I realize there is NO evidence to support this, besides Robert's personalty, but I think it's a reasonable inference, whether Rhaegar is alive or not. As far as Dany and Viserys, how do we know he never tried to find them? It's been fifteen or sixteen years. Anything could have happened in that span of time. Hell, Arya's been across the Narrow Sea, and adventuring around Westeros in only one or two years. I'm not really trying to prove he's alive, I just have way to much time on my hands and I'm seeing a few odd things, and connecting the dots.

These are the crazy thoughts you think of when waiting for The Winds of Winter...

But I do agree Ned and Lyanna are DEAD DEAD DEAD. We got a POV of Ned, and he saw Lyanna die. He told Robert Lyanna was dead; there is no way he would lie to Robert about that, maybe about Jon, but no way did he lie about Lya. And if Ned was alive, that would ruin the entire purpose of his death. Not even I'm crazy enough to theorize and back up that.

[redviper9]

I believe Varys knows (almost) everything, and he certainly could have seen Jof ordering Neds head on a platter.

I believe Melisandre is working with him to restore the Targs, only she focused on getting to Jon while Varys paved the way for an invasion. Melisandre, as we know, has the power to change other peoples appearances, and could easily have switched Ned, if they are after the Targs ruling, Ned is only one generation away from a Targ himself, that is his nephew, Jon. Ned always puts honor and justice above all, he is helping to restore the Targs.

Don't think I've ever seen anyone suggest that Varys and Melisandre were working together, but I find it highly unlikely. Varys is on record as despising anyone who works with blood magic and dark rituals. And Melisandre seems intently focused on Stannis. She showed absolutely no interest in Jon until she got to the Wall (and remember, she didn't want to go to the Wall; she wanted Stannis to sacrifice Edric Storm and raise the stone dragon). Another telling scene is in her POV when she's looking into her fire: she's incredibly frustrated that R'hllor shows her "Snow" when she asks to see AAR, which in her view is Stannis.

Actually the first few are quite simple. First off, who was left to identify Rhaegar? MAYBE Tywin, but that's about it.

Tywin wasn't at the Trident. He didn't leave Casterly Rock until after, and he made his way directly to King's Landing in hopes that he would get there before Ned Stark.

The folks we do know were at the Trident were Robert Baratheon, Ned Stark, Jon Arryn, possibly Hoster Tully (JonCon had wounded him at the Battle of the Bells, so he might have been at Riverrun), Barristan Selmy, Roose Bolton, and Lyn Corbray. It's also implied that Howland Reed was there, as well as Rickard Karstark, Bronze Yohn Royce, and the Greatjon (one of the Umbers is said to have died on the Trident).

[Bear Island Bruiser]

I'd say Rhaegar is dead as well. Theories about a glamour on the rubies as Mel did it would imply their had to be someone capable of doing that around at the time and there weren't. OK you could dress someone else up in his armous but he was the Prince and had been seen at enough tournaments, feasts etc. to be seen by plenty of people enough to be recognised. Hidden away in Dorne as Darkstar? Possibly but they'd still be enough people who could recognise him and give the game away. Safer to send him to Essos, as they did with all the other Targs, Plus it would rely on a bit of a shift in personality, not impossible but unlikely, and fooling everyone about his age. There's enough Targ blood floating around to make appearances crop up in other parts of Westeros.

Equally why would he go along with crowning Myrcella Queen? Would seem unlikely even if he does end up hurting her that speaks far more of wanting to bring Dorne into the war which is his ultimate goal but if the plan had worked it would have had Dorne fighting to put Myrcella on the throne which I don't see him wanting to do.