Fire Eater Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 The Riverlands suffered the most because they were the most fertile to begin with, more crops to burn. The North has lost the most people though.The North hasn't lost the number of people the riverlands have. The only parts of the North that were attacked were the coasts and Winterfell. Whereas the only places in the riverlands left untouched were the fisherfolk encountered by Setpon Meribald and Brienne in AFfC. Entire towns and villages were slaughtered in the riverlands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkantos Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 The North hasn't lost the number of people the riverlands have. The only parts of the North that were attacked were the coasts and Winterfell. Whereas the only places in the riverlands left untouched were the fisherfolk encountered by Setpon Meribald and Brienne in AFfC. Entire towns and villages were slaughtered in the riverlands.How many northerners were massacred at the Red Wedding, killed during battle and sent to wander due to Karstarks beheading? The North has to face a much harsher winter than anywhere else in the seven kingdoms and with their coasts ransacked it's gonna be just that bit harder to bring in supplies. Winterfell was also a life source for thousands and it's in no state to support those people during the coming winter. Then there's the political situation, at least other regions have a single leader, the north is a bit of a cluster fuck with no certain loyalties and that'll lead to supply problems for everyone, not helped by the thousands of wildlings.I think the North was worst hit in regards to its ability to keep its people alive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon AS Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 How many northerners were massacred at the Red Wedding, killed during battle and sent to wander due to Karstarks beheading?Not that many. Robb took less than 20,000 people south. The overall population of the north must number in the millions. Most of those live spread out in small towns and villages and are quite used to preparing for winter, a (lack of) central authority is unlikely to make a difference for them. The only places where people will be in trouble are in the areas hit by the Ironborn raids, possibly the former Hornwood lands and basically anywhere Stannis and the Boltons decide to duke it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey Pie Posted October 29, 2012 Author Share Posted October 29, 2012 How many northerners were massacred at the Red Wedding, killed during battle and sent to wander due to Karstarks beheading? The North has to face a much harsher winter than anywhere else in the seven kingdoms and with their coasts ransacked it's gonna be just that bit harder to bring in supplies. Winterfell was also a life source for thousands and it's in no state to support those people during the coming winter. Then there's the political situation, at least other regions have a single leader, the north is a bit of a cluster fuck with no certain loyalties and that'll lead to supply problems for everyone, not helped by the thousands of wildlings.I think the North was worst hit in regards to its ability to keep its people alive.The North lost around 12-14000 men south of the Neck. The Riverlands lost two crushing battles, where 4000 men fought in the first and i think i remember seing the number 14000 in the second. Id say they lost the same ammount of men in those two battles. Not to mention the raiding. Population wise the Riverlands most definately suffered more then the North.One would assume that the North brings in food from Essos and down south from WH which is untouched and actually doing better then ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beets Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 Riverlands. Murder, murder, and more murder. Moral of the story, kids: Move to Dorne. It's nice in Dorne. It's got flowers, and... and curry. And probably murder in ADwD, but still - curry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Men in their cups say... Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 The North has "lost" every single member of it's ruling family. Winterfell, Deepwood, Torrhen's Square, Moat Cailin and the Stony Shore have all been thoroughly sacked, no Jaime Lannister negotiations. Robb's 20,000 men, 600 men who rode out with Ser Rodrik, the garrison's of all the castles mentioned above are all killed or broken and scattered. The Boltons, Ironborn, and Wildlings have all been raiding small villages everywhere. We know that the North could once field a larger force than the Riverlands but now the reverse is true. Both have been abused. The North's had it worse though in terms of losing important figures, and total population. And Winter is Coming... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Men in their cups say... Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 The North lost around 12-14000 men south of the Neck. The Riverlands lost two crushing battles, where 4000 men fought in the first and i think i remember seing the number 14000 in the second. Id say they lost the same ammount of men in those two battles. Not to mention the raiding. Population wise the Riverlands most definately suffered more then the North.One would assume that the North brings in food from Essos and down south from WH which is untouched and actually doing better then ever.Which two battles are you referring to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey Pie Posted October 29, 2012 Author Share Posted October 29, 2012 The North has "lost" every single member of it's ruling family. Winterfell, Deepwood, Torrhen's Square, Moat Cailin and the Stony Shore have all been thoroughly sacked, no Jaime Lannister negotiations. Robb's 20,000 men, 600 men who rode out with Ser Rodrik, the garrison's of all the castles mentioned above are all killed or broken and scattered. The Boltons, Ironborn, and Wildlings have all been raiding small villages everywhere. We know that the North could once field a larger force than the Riverlands but now the reverse is true. Both have been abused. The North's had it worse though in terms of losing important figures, and total population. And Winter is Coming...Superficially lost, yes. But we as the readers know differently, as does Manderly, Glover and i would think a few other lords. "Arya" is still about too.Torrhens Square was never taken.4000 Northerners came back of the 18000 with Roose. Many of the rest are either brigands or else have returned North. Most damage was done in the Hornwood lands by Ramsay. Theres many thousands of Northmen in WF and outside, perhaps so much as 12000. This isnt all their stregth either, not by a fair margin. The Riverlands army was always bigger then its Northern ally. Its raised three seperate armies, 4000, 14-16000, and another 11000. The last isnt there full muster either. Theres still potential in both regions but the Riverlands had a larger population to begin with. Its a very big area, and extremely fertile. The damage done there is far more on show then anywhere elseThe Norths in trouble purely because of winter and Roose. I dont think its as damaged as the Riverlands door, and close enough between there, stormlands and the west IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey Pie Posted October 29, 2012 Author Share Posted October 29, 2012 Which two battles are you referring to?Battle of the Golden Tooth and the Battle of RR, where Jaime Lannister destroyed both hosts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkantos Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 Battle of the Golden Tooth and the Battle of RR, where Jaime Lannister destroyed both hostsYes, however, the forces weren't entirely wiped out were they? Routed I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey Pie Posted October 29, 2012 Author Share Posted October 29, 2012 Yes, however, the forces weren't entirely wiped out were they? Routed I think.Well the 4000 thousand were against 15000, and i imagine Jaime was pretty thorough. Then under RR, Edmure was caught training his levies, in what i imagine was like an Oxcross situation, but perhaps not as bad. Edmure was taken captive along with many nobles. Id say it was fairly crushing. No battle is ever entirely a wipeout but it sounds bad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViktorH Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 Definitely the Riverlands, but i think it'll be interesting to see who will heal much of the damage that has been done, Jamie, Edmure, Blackfish, Stoneheart? Stoneheart and Blackfish could easily team up and win the support of the commoners cause i think they commoners will always hate the Lannisters. I think the Reach and Stormlands will soon be disturbed as well through The John and Aegon's conquest. Dorne will probably be okay. The North will suffer through the harsh winter and the Crownlands will probably delve into chaos after Kevan's death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Men in their cups say... Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Many of the rest are either brigands or else have returned North.Not a single one of them returned North with the Ironmen holding Moat Cailin.The North brought nearly 20,000 soldiers south. Not to mention all of the cooks, squires, pages, camp followers, washerwomen, and their children. 40,000 total Northerners seems like a conservative estimate to me. And only Roose's 4000 ever made it back.And Torren's Square was taken by Dagmer Cleftjaw after Ser Rodrik and his troops heard that Theon had taken Winterfell and left. It is currently still held by the Ironborn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 The North has "lost" every single member of it's ruling family. Winterfell, Deepwood, Torrhen's Square, Moat Cailin and the Stony Shore have all been thoroughly sacked, no Jaime Lannister negotiations. Robb's 20,000 men, 600 men who rode out with Ser Rodrik, the garrison's of all the castles mentioned above are all killed or broken and scattered. The Boltons, Ironborn, and Wildlings have all been raiding small villages everywhere. We know that the North could once field a larger force than the Riverlands but now the reverse is true. Both have been abused. The North's had it worse though in terms of losing important figures, and total population. And Winter is Coming...The North has lost most of its leaders and about 17,000 soldiers max. Winterfell is sparsely populated during fall, Moat Cailin is a fortress held by hardly anybody far away from human habitation, Asha behaved somewhat nice in Deepwood Motte, no massacring the civilians, the Cleftjaw took Torrhen's Square with ~30 men if that, not enough for massacres in the countryside and hardly anybody lives at the Stony Shore. The population centres are all in the east - and spread out far and wide. You'd need a million ironborn spreading out to do serious damage.Currently, the North has up to 40,000 soldiers available, as many as the Riverlands had prior to the war. And hardly any civilian died. Apart from leadership, it's in pretty good shape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurkhal Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 To me the Riverlands easily takes the price since it has been the area of constant war right from the start, and have almost only had bad stuff happened to it.- Lannister foraging- Brave Companions- Lannister and Stark "normal" atrocities- Nymeria and her wolves- Outlaws and broken men- And now winter on top of it before they have recoveredTo me it seems that the Riverlands have probably suffered as much if not more than the rest of Westeros althogether in this war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scipio Africanus Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 How many northerners were massacred at the Red Wedding, killed during battle and sent to wander due to Karstarks beheading? The North has to face a much harsher winter than anywhere else in the seven kingdoms and with their coasts ransacked it's gonna be just that bit harder to bring in supplies. Winterfell was also a life source for thousands and it's in no state to support those people during the coming winter. Then there's the political situation, at least other regions have a single leader, the north is a bit of a cluster fuck with no certain loyalties and that'll lead to supply problems for everyone, not helped by the thousands of wildlings.I think the North was worst hit in regards to its ability to keep its people alive.Riverlands were hit 10x harder. They've been constantly at war and seriously pillaged by numerous armies and bandit groups.The North basically lost its army that went south with Robb and a lot of the nobility has perished. However, if you compare the two regions, you'll find that White Harbor remained untouched for example, and that was the most populous place in the North.The Ironborn basically raided sparsely populated places (which is why Asha during the Kingsmoot wanted to leave the North) which were even further depleted by their lords marching south. In other words there wasn't much left in the places the Ironborn hit. Moat Cailin was normally never even populated I believe, it was a ruined castle but with the southern fortifications still intact. Only Winterfell did have a larger population but again a lot of troops around Winterfell went south (they were the closest by) with Robb.The North is in real trouble not because of the Ironborn but because the Others are coming. There will be few troops to stop them by the time the civil war has played out between Stark and Lannister loyalists, and the infighting within the NW.I fully expect the North to be overrun. But the Riverlands are the hardest hit I'd say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrcella Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 The Riverlands, definitely. Poor Tully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey Pie Posted October 30, 2012 Author Share Posted October 30, 2012 Not a single one of them returned North with the Ironmen holding Moat Cailin.The North brought nearly 20,000 soldiers south. Not to mention all of the cooks, squires, pages, camp followers, washerwomen, and their children. 40,000 total Northerners seems like a conservative estimate to me. And only Roose's 4000 ever made it back.And Torren's Square was taken by Dagmer Cleftjaw after Ser Rodrik and his troops heard that Theon had taken Winterfell and left. It is currently still held by the Ironborn.My mistake you are correct. However, it wasnt with a large loss of life as the keep was mostly undefended. Rooses own men and Karstark men. Its odd i agree, but nobody ever mentions a tail of cooks and squires for the Northern army, only Tywins when they were setting up at HH. Robb brought 18000 Northmen south with him, the rest were frey levies. So thats at the max 14000 men lost, compared to the West which is around double that number. Its unknown if many men made it back north. The crannogmen hold the neck, the IB hold MC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Independent George Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 The worst part is that it's only going to go downhill for the Riverlands. They lost their entire crop and whatever food they had stored, and lost the their last harvest to the snows. They're going to starve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey Pie Posted October 31, 2012 Author Share Posted October 31, 2012 As an aside how much damage do people feel was done in the West by Robb? Were his or Karstarks raids anywhere near as violent as Gregor and Tywins? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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