Ramsay Gimp Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 Mel suggests that he convert, but she suggests that everyone convert so big whoop. Stannis only requires his fealty, and makes no mention of Jon accepting the Red God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Drunkard Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter's Knight Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 “Jon.” Melisandre was so close he could feel the warmth of her breath. “R’hllor is the only true god. A vow sworn to a tree has no more power than one sworn to your shoes. Open your heart and let the light of the Lord come in. Burn these weirwoods, and accept Winterfell as a gift of the Lord of Light.”When Jon had been very young, too young to understand what it meant to be a bastard, he used to dream that one day Winterfell might be his. Later, when he was older, he had been ashamed of those dreams. Winterfell would go to Robb and then his sons, or to Bran or Rickon should Robb die childless. And after them came Sansa and Arya. Even to dream otherwise seemed disloyal, as if he were betraying them in his heart, wishing for their deaths. I never wanted this, he thought as he stood before the blue-eyed king and the red woman. I loved Robb, loved all of them . . . I never wanted any harm to come to any of them, but it did. And now there’s only me . All he had to do was say the word, and he would be Jon Stark, and nevermore a Snow. All he had to do was pledge this king his fealty, and Winterfell was his. All he had to do . . .. . . was forswear his vows again.And this time it would not be a ruse. To claim his father’s castle, he must turn against his father’s godsIt's not just his bastard status that needs to be removed but also the oaths he swore to the weirwood and the numberless gods of the North. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay Gimp Posted October 29, 2012 Author Share Posted October 29, 2012 Almost everyone I've seen mention that scene on this board. I get how it could seem that way from a quick reading of that scene, but it makes Stannis seem more fanatical and rigid than he actually is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carter209 Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 Because the Mannis says so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay Gimp Posted October 29, 2012 Author Share Posted October 29, 2012 It's not just his bastard status that needs to be removed but also the oaths he swore to the weirwood and the numberless gods of the North.Even if he had to swear new vows to the Lord of Light, that has nothing to do with burning Winterfell's godswood or even remaining a Red God worshipper once in Stannis' service.Stannis didn't require coversion from the Mountain Clans or from Renly's bannermen, only from the Wildlings. Davos, his most trusted advisor, worships the Seven. I don't see why he'd require it of Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 You are mistaken. Jon would have to feed whichever weirwoods to the flames, including the one at Winterfell. As a matter of fact, that is probably one of the main reasons, if not the main reason for Jon to decline Stannis' offer. ASoS, Jon"Yes,” he said, hesitantly, “kings have legitimized bastards before, but . . . I am still a brother of the Night’s Watch. I knelt before a heart tree and swore to hold no lands and father no children.”“Jon.” Melisandre was so close he could feel the warmth of her breath. “R’hllor is the only true god. A vow sworn to a tree has no more power than one sworn to your shoes. Open your heart and let the light of the Lord come in. Burn these weirwoods, and accept Winterfell as a gift of the Lord of Light.”And later, again ASoS, JonWhen Jon closed his eyes he saw the heart tree, with its pale limbs, red leaves, and solemn face. The weirwood was the heart of Winterfell, Lord Eddard always said . . .but to save the castle Jon would have to tear that heart up by its ancient roots, and feed it to the red woman’s hungry fire god. I have no right, he thought. Winterfell belongs to the old gods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carter209 Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 The only reason why Jon doesn't take him up on the offer is because of the return of Ghost, who looks EXACTLY LIKE a weirwood. He then realizes "Hell no, I'll keep my trees and you can keep your damn fire god." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay Gimp Posted October 29, 2012 Author Share Posted October 29, 2012 ^Jon is wrong. Stannis' actual concrete offer, made explicit, says nothing about any Gods. Mel was just suggesting, and Stannis was letting her, and Jon made the leap that she was speaking for Stannis."Say nothing of what we've discussed here today. To anyone. But when you return, you need only bend your knee, lay your sword at my feet, and pledge yourself to my service, and you shall rise again as Jon Stark, the Lord of Winterfell."-Stannis, pg. 1286Need ONLY.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter's Knight Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 Stannis derives his power from Mel though, if she wanted the weirwood burnt, the weirwood would burn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carter209 Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 ^Jon is wrong. Stannis' actual concrete offer, made explicit, says nothing about any Gods. Mel was just suggesting, and Stannis was letting her, and Jon made the leap that she was speaking for Stannis."Say nothing of what we've discussed here today. To anyone. But when you return, you need only bend your knee, lay your sword at my feet, and pledge yourself to my service, and you shall rise again as Jon Stark, the Lord of Winterfell."-Stannis, pg. 1286Need ONLY....And what has Stannis done at Storm's End? Oh, burned the weirwood, since it was a different god than R'hllor. What did he do on Dragonstone? Oh, burned the obelisks to the Seven on Dragonstone.You really think Mel/Stannis is going to let the BIGGEST weirwood in the North go untouched? Hell no, that is getting burned to the ground. Every foreign religious item Stannis/Mel has come upon, it had to go.If it was just the Mannis, then yeah, it could stay. But when that offer's made, it's both Stannis and Mel. The burning of other religious areas is kind of included there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay Gimp Posted October 29, 2012 Author Share Posted October 29, 2012 ^That's underestimating Stannis. He uses Mel just as much (more?) as she uses him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carter209 Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 ^That's underestimating Stannis. He uses Mel just as much (more?) as she uses himUnderstanding, not underestimating. Clash, Storm, and the first chapters of Dance say that. Asha's chapters clue us in to that, as well, considering she describes him as lost and crying out to his Red Woman.Look, I love Stan the Man, but when he's around Mel, she wears the pants in that relationship. She's using every trick in her bag to keep Stannis in her pocket, and when you have both of them together, you can take it to the bank that Mel's the one pulling strings(with the exception of a Davos/Jon idea, obviously). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay Gimp Posted October 29, 2012 Author Share Posted October 29, 2012 Look, I love Stan the Man, but when he's around Mel, she wears the pants in that relationship. She's using every trick in her bag to keep Stannis in her pocket, and when you have both of them together, you can take it to the bank that Mel's the one pulling strings(with the exception of a Davos/Jon idea, obviously).Was she "wearing the pants" when he threatened to kill her slowly if she deceived him about Edric Storm? When he sent her packing before the Blackwater? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter's Knight Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 Was she "wearing the pants" when he threatened to kill her slowly if she deceived him about Edric Storm? When he sent her packing before the Blackwater?And what he did he do about Edric then? And how well did Blackwater work out for him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carter209 Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 Was she "wearing the pants" when he threatened to kill her slowly if she deceived him about Edric Storm? When he sent her packing before the Blackwater?Bud, he lost the Blackwater. That worked perfectly for Mel. And to be frank, he wouldn't have killed her when it came to Edric Storm, because she has power, something that Stannis, quite honestly, doesn't have with his, what, 5,000 men? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay Gimp Posted October 29, 2012 Author Share Posted October 29, 2012 And what he did he do about Edric then? And how well did Blackwater work out for him?We'll never know what he would have done about Edric. And he lost on the Blackwater because of tactical mistakes and the Lannisters playing better politics than him. So what? This is getting off-topic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord of the Tower Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 will somebody please just stick a sword through that red woman and be quick about it.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter's Knight Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 We'll never know what he would have done about Edric. And he lost on the Blackwater because of tactical mistakes and the Lannisters playing better politics than him. So what? This is getting off-topicThe Lannisters played better politics? Stannis kills the Tyrell's son-in-law and candidate for king-did he think that they'd join him once Renly was dead? will somebody please just stick a sword through that red woman and be quick about it..Stannis has been there and done that. :cool4:Seriously though, the man has a working brain and is capable of thinking for himself-Mel hasn't exactly hypnotised him y'know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay Gimp Posted October 29, 2012 Author Share Posted October 29, 2012 The Lannisters played better politics? Stannis kills the Tyrell's son-in-law and candidate for king-did he think that they'd join him once Renly was dead?The fact that they actually attempted alliances with any Great Houses shows the Lannisters played the Game better than Stannis pre-Blackwater. He made no offers, only demands, and payed for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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