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If Ned had told Robert...


Jamie's left hand

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Thing is, Bran cant seem to remember that. For reasons i am unsure of, he gets all weird and even a bit ill when he tries to remember why he fell. All he can remember is voices and even then, he starts getting all wiggy. I wonder if thats just a sort of defense mechanism of his or something magical going on. (probably the former though.)

Actually, I`m doing a Bran reread at the minute and in the later half of Clash he actually remembers. His dream of falling and the golden haired man finally clicks with him and he briefly mentions knowing it was "the Queen`s brother" who threw him. Can`t remember the exact passage at the minute but it`s there. He speculates telling Luwin and Rodrick but remembers their stance on dreams and also speculates telling the Reeds but doesn`t yet know about the greendreams. I think.

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5 scenarios if it goes to trial:

1) Jaime vs. Baristan. I think Jaime wins, Lannisters win, Baratheon cred a littel diminished. But breach between Robert and Cersei inevitible. Some awkward court dynamic, probably one or more assassination attempts, etc.

2) Jaime vs. Oberyn Martell. IF there's time, I think he would absolutely come up to kill Tywin's favorite son. Tougher car as to who wins, but even if jaime wins he probably dies, if the Red Viper manages to get the poisoned spear into the fight. Or even chooses it; sword might be better vs. Jaime, who is lightning quick.

3a) Jaime vs. Loras Tyrell, if mounted combat is permitted. I can see the Tyrells seeing this is their chance to assume the role as main support for the crown. And, based on Loras' win and Jaime's grudging answers, it would be too close to call.

3b) Garlan Tyrell, if mounting isn't. Same reasoning. But Garlan is the wildcard here. He is clearly elite...but we have no way of knowing how elite. He shuns the glory, but does occassionally engage in tourney and does very well on horse. But with a sword he is apparently a prodigy, and his training regimine almost defies belief. So he could be in Jaime's league, or just below it, or just above it...hard to tell. Again, too closes to call in part because of insufficient information.

4) Some other knight of renown, but who? Bronze Yohn or Lynn Cobray? The Blackfish? All seem a bit old, but who knows...

5) Robert chooses himself, whereupon he gets killed. Now, give him some time to get in shape, and...he still gets killed. Probably. BUT...if he's hammer to sword, and they're in plate, he has a huge advantage. Swords have to puncture or cut into plate to inflict damage, warhammers just have to make contact. And a rage fueld Robert reclaiming his youth against another man who stole his women...he still gets killed, but has a chance, maybe. One blow, again, is all you really need. Warhammers cruch bone benath the armour, or puncture it. Jaime could be raining blows on him, but if Robert gets in one good blow...that's usually gonna do it.

On the other hand, Jaime probably isn't stupid enough to choose the sword vs. plate...It's not like he's gonna be on a battlefield where a sword is better against a variety of opponants...he probably chooses mace, lets Robert tire himself and his rage out, and then moves in for the kill.

GAME CHANGER.

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Even if Robert wanted to fight in the trial himself, Ned and Stannis and Renly would all counsel him to elect Barristan or another to fight in his stead.

They'd say it was playing right into Cersei's plans, and honestly, that years on the throne have unmade him as a warrior. That much sense being fed to his ears, Robert choses another.

Robert wouldn't fight.

And Robert hates his wife and his heir. He'd remember the look of his bastards, Jon Arryns last words, the lineage book and it would all come together.

It might not have even made it to trial.

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It might not have even made it to trial.

This.

Robert would probably have punched Cersei to death, Jaime would have gone on a killing spree... I'm not sure what Robert would have done with the kiddies, but I think he probably would have killed them.

well...the story would be different, but there would still be a war. If Ned managed to tell Robert then Robert would have killed Cersei, the children, and Jaime. Doing so would have brought on Tywins wrath and war would have broken out as a result. So war would still take place, just with different chess pieces.

If he had proof about Jaime and Cersei, then Tywin would have had no choice but to back down and save his pride. Tywin's not an idiot. It would have been him, and the armies of Lannister (if they didn't defect because of all that creepy incest shiz) versus the king, his Great Houses, and the remaining armies of Westeros. It would have been quick, brutal, and Lannister would have been ruined forever. Tywin would be smarter to cut his losses, disown Jaime and Cersei, and rush back to CR to lick his wounds. He might even try to do something about it himself as a way to re-prove his loyalty, and retain the honor of his house, if not that of his children.

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He could not fortify in MC and watch Riverlands perish. But if there were proofs Robert would beheaded both Jaime and Cersei. They asked no trial by combat for Ned so Robert can exucute them both. I'm not sure if Tywin start a desperate war but if he would he could not stand long. But everything would be quite easier and bloodless.

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There are a lot of ways this could play out. (Now, I don't really remember the details. Ned realized Joff, Tom and Myrc couldn't possibly be Robert's, but was he certain Jaime was the father?)

Assuming Ned never told Cersei what he knew and somehow managed to tell Robert before he went hunting here are some of the scenarios I could see play out:

  1. Cersei and Jaime are taken captive.

  • 1a. Cersei and Jaime are tried by combat.
    • 1aa. Robert insists on fighting himself and gets killed.
      • 1aaa. Jaime and Cersei are technically cleared of all charges, but Stannis and probably Ned refuse to accept this, and war still breaks out.

      [*]1ab. Barristan fights Jaime. (This one is really close. I'd give it to a younger Barristan, but age has evened the odds.)

      • Barristan slays Jaime. Cersei is executed for high treason. Joff and Tom go to the Wall and Myrcella becomes a septa or a silent sister, (or Ned's fears come true and Bob has the children killed.)
      • Jaime slays Barristan. Robert and Ned are humiliated. Robert and Ned will try to find a way to get rid of them anyway. Cersei will try to have them assasinated. This is actually a tricky one. Could go a lot of ways.

    [*]1b Robert and Ned don't want to risk single combat against Jaime, and demand trial by seven. These guys fight:

    [*]

    Accused:

    1. Jaime Lannister

    2. Ser Gregor Clegane

    3. Sandor Clegane - My only question is would he be willing to fight alongside his brother or would he turncloak (Sandor was close to Joffrey and he would be convinced to fight)

    4.Devan Lannister, he is cousin to Jaime and a good fighter

    5.Addam Marbrand, he is Jaime's best friend

    6.Harwyn Plumm, his House is sworn to the Lannisters and he is a lot like Robert

    7.Steffon Swyft, again his is sworn to House Lannister

    Accusing

    1. Robert Baeretheon - There's no way anyone could talk him out of fighting.

    2. Eddard Stark - Ned's not going to let someone fight for him

    3. Barristan Selmy

    4. Garlan the Gallant - representing Tyrell interest in getting Margaery made queen

    5. Oberyn Martell - There to get vengeance for Elia.

    6. Brynden Tully - protecting his niece's husband and seeking justice for Jon Arryn's presumed killer

    7. A KG member maybe? Or someone from Stormlands such as Balon Swann (just realised that his name souns like Bella Swan :stillsick: )

    Could still go either way, but my money would still be on the king's team. (As long as Oberyn takes care of Gregor) :fencing:

    [*]1c. Jaime and Cersei are refused the right to trial by combat, convicted and executed. Tywin has no other option than to disavow his children or see his house be destroyed. If Robert or Ned had any skill in the Game of Thrones, they would probably do anything in their power to find an excuse to destroy the entire House Lannister (or they could just do the even more machiavellian thing and destroy it anyway.)

2. Jaime goes on a killing spree and manages to slay Robert... which doesn't really gain him anything, since the whole world will know him for a traitor then, and few would want to side with him. It would be interesting to see if Renly would still crown himself king. There could easily still be a war, Team Joffrey's chances would just be a lot worse.

Sorry for the long ass post, I'm just babbling on. I really should be off to bed.
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I think the better question would be why Ned didn't tell Renly when it was obvious Robert was dying

Probably because he kept it on a need-to-know basis in order to avoid bloodshed. He didn't want to be responsible for the deaths of Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen. And he had no reason to trust Renly, He only told Stannis because he was the rightful heir.

Also, at that moment Ned had no reason to believe that he didn't have control over the situation.

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Alternatively he could pretend that nothing had happened and gone on with his grotesque marital arrangement so as not to lose the Lannisters. Politics is a dirty business.

Actually, I think this has a good chance of being the outcome.

Does Robert want to be remembered for the rest of the history of the Seven Kingdoms as the Cuckold King ? or maybe Robert the Horned ?

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The only chance Ned had to tell Robert was as he lay dying. Even if he believed Ned I think he wouldve just died unhappily and left Ned in control or perhaps give the throne to Stannis. Then Cersei wouldve ripped up that letter instead. No big difference really.

Would Cersei have gotten that letter though? I'm not so sure Barristan would be very willing to give her the letter when it says to arrest her for high treason or what ever.

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Would Cersei have gotten that letter though? I'm not so sure Barristan would be very willing to give her the letter when it says to arrest her for high treason or what ever.

Good point, but I thought that the whole message behind Ned's fall was that the Players are all selfish and that honor can't win the Game. It would still be his word against Cersei's and I think the outcome would still be similar.

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if Ned had told King Bob before the boar incident he would have most likely killed Cersie himself, immediately, whereupon Jaime would have killed him, becoming the first double-kingslayer in Westerosi history. I don't think you get pardoned for the second offense for that.

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I dont think Jamie would kill Robert for one of a couple reason

1 I dont think Jamie is that bad ass to fight off Barristan and the rest of the kings guard

2 I dont think he could beat Robert one on one yes robert is older and fatter then when he won the crown but he is still a beast

My vote is that Jamie tries to kill Rob and get his ass kick by Selmy

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I dont think Jamie would kill Robert for one of a couple reason

1 I dont think Jamie is that bad ass to fight off Barristan and the rest of the kings guard

2 I dont think he could beat Robert one on one yes robert is older and fatter then when he won the crown but he is still a beast

My vote is that Jamie tries to kill Rob and get his ass kick by Selmy

I'm not a Jaime fan, but he's the best sword in Westeros at the time. He would make mincemeat of fat, drunken Bob. And no matter how good Barristan was his best days are behind him. The rest of King Bob's KIng's Guard is pretty much a joke.

Combined, the KG could take Jaime down but he'd have done for Bob before they did.

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