A truly just man? - a Stannis reread

[Blisscraft]

Very interesting post on the sibling rivalry and Robert's inability to "stomach" Stannis. You're right in that that is a very powerful word to use in this context.

An unbridgable personality gap could easily account for why Robert refused to name Stannis his Warden of the East. And the gap fits in with what we learn about Stannis in AGOT; by all accounts in that book, he seems to be the polar opposite of Robert in every way.

Thank you. This rivalry between Stannis and Robert begins in childhood and only worsens with age.

ETA - As for Renly, his rivalry with his brothers contributes to this. Renly seems fully aware of Robert's "willful blindness" with regard to "his" children. That is why he plots with Loras to bring Margery to KL. (Remember Renly shows Ned the portrait of Margery and asks if she resembles anyone, specifically Lyanna). Renly is attempting with his powerful friends to oust the Lannisters and replace them with Tyrells. However, cIrcumstances involving a white hart, a wineskin, and an unruly boar foil his plans for Robert.

Renly, is more like Robert than he is like Stannis. Like Robert, Renly has no respect for Stannis because Stannis is different. Renly and Robert are both extroverted. Both enjoy company and parties and the like. Stannis seems to be a "party pooper." Tag's comment about "wine and women" is very true for Robert as is Stannis' aversion to both. Renly's flamboyant style and exhibitionism is equally off-putting to a personality such as Stannis. In this regard, Robert and Renly are bookends to Stannis. Stannis is in the middle literally by birth order and figuratively by personality.

Glad to see you back on the boards, Butterbumps!

[Lux in Tenebris]

Sibling rivalry is a major theme within the series, especially when there are three brothers as is the case with Robert, Stannis, and Renly. The three brothers contemporary with the Baratheons in the books are the three Starks: Brandon, Ned, and Benjen. As DP noted above the Heir is always a threat, explicit or implicit, to the Crown. This is a reflection of how sibling rivalry works in families as well. There is the Heir and then there are the spares; the oldest and then the youngers(est) which may, but probably won't inherit unless something happens to the older(est). This is no small matter in a society which practices primogeniture as is practiced in Westeros.

Ned's investigation into Jon Arryn's death brings us some important information regarding Stannis and his relationship not only with his older brother, Robert, but also with his younger brother, Renly. We learn from Ned that Stannis had accompanied JA on his visits to the armorer, Tobho Mott, and to the brothel. Ned learns that Jon wants to foster his son, Robert, on Dragonstone with Stannis. Ned "finds this curious" because Stannis and Jon "had been cordial, but never friendly." Also, Ned is taken aback by Stannis going to a brothel and "wonders what Lord Renly will make of this" because "Robert's lusts were the subject of ribald drinking songs throughout the realm. But Stannis was a very different sort of man; bare a year younger than the king, but utterly unlike him, stern, humorless, unforgiving, grim in his sense of duty." (Some of these qualities Ned shares with Stannis). FInally, during Ned's investigation, we learn that Stannis is not only a different type of personality than Robert and Renly are, but also very different physically: Stannis is "the bald one" (Gendry's description). Robert and Renly are both noted for their beautiful thick black hair. Renly is "the image of Robert" when he was younger and less dissipated by fast living.

Stannis being "the bald one," is a significant detail. It not only sets him apart physically, but also psychically from Robert and Stannis. Hair is associated with beauty and vigor in men. Baldness is associated with bareness and drought and a lack of sexual vigor. However, baldness is also a sign of intelligence, like the term "egghead," meaning a genius or as a friend of mine used to say, "green grass doesn't grow on a busy street." There is a difference between shaving one's head and going bald, but the effect is very similar in that we can see the exposed surface of the head, we can see its structure, the outline of what lies beneath, the mystery of the bald one's thoughts, imagination, and creative prowess laid bare before us.

Robert and Renly, the oldest and the youngest are more alike than Stannis. Stannis is the odd man out in the family; the monkey in the middle. From Renly, during the council meetings, we learn that Robert is bored by governance and would rather be out and about, but Stannis, Renly is amused to report is stern and once proposed "to outlaw brothels. . . The King asked if perhaps he''d like to outlaw eating, shitting and breathing." Much later in GoT, Varys describes the differences between Stannis and Renly as Stannis is like "an iron gauntlet" and Renly is "a silk glove."

One other aspect of Stannis it seems is that Robert, can't "stomach" him. This is repeated in GoT at least twice. The idea of not being able to "stomach" someone is a powerful image. If you can't "stomach" someone, they must be ejected, like vomit. They cannot be a part of you. You cannot assimilate them within you. Robert expresses his distain towards Stannis not only with intentional "slights" by not giving him Storm's End, as noted above, but also, according to Renly, by "breaking in" Stannis' marriage bed at his wedding to Selyse. It's ironic that Robert is gored by the boar through his stomach.

On last thing, sibling rivalry creates a need for surrogates, substitute siblings, like brothers or sisters, but without the motive to remove the older(est) as king or heir. Ned is a surrogate brother to Robert. Robert chose Ned to be his Hand and Ned is much more like Stannis than Robert's other brothers. Ned can be "grim" and dutiful. When Ned does not agree with Robert about ordering the execution of Dany, Robert calls Ned, a "frozen-faced fool." Sounds like one he could have used on Stannis. Also, like Stannis, Ned is the middle brother. Ned has Brandon, the oldest and Benjen the youngest.

I don't want to get too off topic, but I always thought it odd that Robert would be such close friends with Ned, someone who has more in common with Stannis than Robert in terms of personality.

[LuisDantas]

Stannis is nothing like Ned.

[kissdbyfire]

Stannis is nothing like Ned.

Stannis is exactly like Ned in all things nature. The things they differ on are the traits acquired through nurture.

[Blisscraft]

Stannis is exactly like Ned in all things nature. The things they differ on are the traits acquired through nurture.

Well put! :thumbsup:

ETA: The only "nature" difference is Stannis is bald.

[Lummel]

Stannis is exactly like Ned in all things nature. The things they differ on are the traits acquired through nurture.

yes?

I don't really see any similarity other than that they were middle sons with an awkward relationship with their elder brothers and that socially because they are both Great Lords they are obliged to be Lordly. They certainly don't recognise each other as kindred spirits.

[Blisscraft]

yes?

I don't really see any similarity other than that they were middle sons with an awkward relationship with their elder brothers and that socially because they are both Great Lords they are obliged to be Lordly. They certainly don't recognise each other as kindred spirits.

It's a bit like magnetism. Alike repels; unlike attracts. It seems that Stannis suffered a bit of jealousy over Nedbert. Nedbert never paid Stannis much mind. Pesky younger brothers trying to horn in and all!

[LuisDantas]

Any similarities between Ned and Stannis sure failed to register to Robert, I can't help but notice.

Nor do they register in their actual values or behavior, either.

[The guy from the Vale]

@Luis: I don't think we disagree all that much so far. It's certainly the case that AGoT leaves us in the dark about Stannis, his character and motivations, except for the fact that he's disliked by the rotten court. Littlefinger's reason for opposing Stannis is that Stannis would replace the current court with ihs own men. But what we have seen at court so far makes this argument an argument for Stannis: The corruption in King's Landing is glaringly obvious, and removing it would be beneficial, all in all.

As for Aegon I creating the instability, the Seven Kingdoms were far less stable before Aegon invaded, and the Targaryen rule is surprisingly stable and calm. A dynasty reigning over 280 years is quite respectable; even more so on a continent like Westeros.

@R'hllor's Bastard: I agree that Stannis isn't quite as unproblematic as he might seem early on; to the contrary. But in AGoT, I think we're supposed to root for him. The very fact that we don't know Stannis, but do know Robert's court and know Stannis would remove said court makes rooting for him easier, not harder.

@Blisscraft: I admire your close-reading skills. I don't know if Martin really intended every line to be as ominous as you make them sound, but they definitely add the finer lines to the picture.

As for Stannis and Ned, they certainly share the family dynamics of being the second brother: both are more introverted and dutiful than their older brothers. But I think the comparison stops there. Stannis is way more pragmatic to the point of hypocrisy. Ned's idealism and compassion even with his enemies (Cersei) dooms him, but it is exactly the reason why I like him so much.

[the titan of westeros]

I've always looked at the reasoning for Robert hating Stannis and loving Ned as the time difference of when were living together. Robert was fostered at the Eerie with Ned. Robert probably looked at Stannis as the buzzkill brother who was always trying to repremand him in front of the court. Ned was Bobs war buddy and they spent there teenage years together whereas Bob spent his sad, parentless childhood and miserable courtlife with god-awful Cersei and Stannis. Robert probably just wanted to drink and waste money and Stannis probably said something along the lines of "no" or "you shouldn't do that". In Roberts mind thats reason to not be able to stomach someone.

[Rolex Baratheon]

Everybody in AGoT seems to regard Stannis as a bad choice as king. Only Ned supports him, more out of duty than anything else, but Ned is also the only one to have good words for Stannis from the beginning. But noone doubts Stannis' competence: The reasons against him lie more in the fact that he is too hard, too uncompromising and uncorruptible. That the men spouting these opinions - Robert, Baelish and Varys - are the most corrupt men in King's Landing, coupled with Ned's support, conversely paints Stannis in a way more favorable light. It's easy to root for Ned and Stannis here - but that's also because Ned is drawn in an extremely sympathetic light, and because we haven't seen Stannis yet. If we knew what Stannis is like in ACoK, I think it would have been much harder to unequivocally root for Ned to succeed in enthronign Stannis.

This.

Stannis is the best of all the Five Kings. He had the least men, the least resources, the least castles, and yet it was only GRRM's stupidly unrealistic love for Lannisters that prevented him coming to the Throne in A Clash of Kings. Stannis makes do with such little; the fact that he even survived while men with huge armies and loads of castles such as Robb and Tywin died, shows a lot about his versatility and tenacity. Stannis is quality, Tywin is quantity. Also, Stannis, contrary to what his dumb brothers believe, seems a fantastic leader. He's hard and yet his men come across as very loyal to him (Justin Massey, Godrey Farring etc). Stannis also has flexibility. Who expected him to abandon Dragonstone and sail to the Wall of all places? He's notched up a few victories under his belt with his scattered army and I think that is spectacular. And versatility and tenacity are huge assets for any King of a murderous, treacherous land like Westeros.

He's also flexible. Changing game plan and going to the Wall proved this.

​One major point people use against Stannis is that he is hypocritical and not a man of honour and justice like he claims. However, they often forget that unlike Ned, he puts justice before honour and this view of his is probably something instilled in him by the 'unfair' and non loving treatment he received as a middle kid in Storm's End, living in Robert's shadow. He agreed to Melisandre using dark magic to put Renly out of his illegal contention of the Iron Throne (although he did not necessarily know the exact means of Mel's plan) because it was justice. He tossed his castellan out of Storm's End during the Siege of Storm's End by the Tyrells because the castellan wanted to escape and avoid starving. If it were Ned in this scenario, he would've put honour and compassion, as is a direct result of honour, before justice considering the man was starving just as he was. But Stannis didn't. For him its always justice and then honour.

Now, is Stannis truly the Stannis we hear about? 'Hard as iron, breaks before he bends, absolute justice etc'? Well yes he is, but not completely. Guys that is like the point of this story. Nobody in this series or the real world can be absolutely fixed characters; they're people with free will, not robots and hence are prone to change with experience. Some change less than others, and Stannis is one of them, but the change is there nonetheless. Stannis is not absolutely Stannis; he's 95% Stannis and 5% open to change.

[LuisDantas]

Can someone please point me to the statements about Stannis' competence in AGOT?

[( Bloodraven )]

Can someone please point me to the statements about Stannis' competence in AGOT?

It's at post #2 of this thread. The fact that Ned suggested him as Warden of the East:

"Yet we still must have a Warden of the East. If Robert Arryn will not do, name one of your brothers. Stannis proved himself at the siege of Storm's End, surely."

And that quote by Varys:

His claim is the true one, he is known for his prowess as a battle commander, and he is utterly without mercy.

[LuisDantas]

Thanks. Sometimes I wonder if I missed any.

[Blisscraft]

GftV - Thank you, I think.

[Bayard]

This project isn't really moving :(. Pitty.

[Blisscraft]

This project isn't really moving :(. Pitty.

I agree.

[Ragnorak]

I've never seen Stannis as the break before bending type except on principle. "Half my army are unbelievers, pray harder" comes to mind as an example along with his refusal to consider any political arrangement with the Lannisters. He bends a great deal just not on principle and selling out one's principles seems to be the primary currency in KL.

At the Wall when Slynt asks for "royal guidance" we learn that Stannis seems very much aware of his arrangement with LF. It was Jon Arryn and Stannis bringing the Slynt matter before Robert and Robert being swayed by LF to stick with the the corruption he knows. Then we have Arryn agreeing to foster his son with Stannis which is later changed by Robert to Tywin. We also have Stannis and Arryn visiting the brothel and blacksmith together. It strikes me that Arryn and Stannis were making arrangements to secure a Baratheon powerbase to balance out what Robert was yielding to the Lannisters. Dorne and the North are already opposed to the Lannisters and fostering Sweetrobin on Dragonstone ensures a Stormlands/Vale union against Casterly Rock designs.

Stannis is harsh with gelding rapists, but so is Randyl Tarly. He never struck me as the type to outlaw brothels as a means of imposing his moral choices on a land. Was that an attempt to cut off LF's power given his association with brothels? Stannis seems to have his finger on the pulse of the corruption in KL and Robert seems overly deaf to his counsel even with Arryn on his side. Ned encounters the same thing with Robert. It strikes me that Stannis and Arryn had made common cause to try and save Robert's reign despite himself, and other forces were acting to undermine these efforts.

[Dr. Pepper]

A Clash of Kings: Prologue

Overview:

Summer has ended and autumn has arrived. There is hope for a good and bountiful harvest. However, Davos brings news that the Storm Lords will not rise for Stannis. Maester Cressen advises Stannis to make common cause with at least one other region in order to fight the war. Selyse tells Stannis he is not a beggar and that Melisandre can help. He agrees with her. At dinner, Cressen devises a plan to rid Mel from the ranks, but is unsuccessful and loses his own life instead.

Observations:

• There was no hint of warmth in his voice; there seldom was.
  
• only a fringe of thin black hair remained on his head, circling behind his ears like the shadow of a crown...His eyes were open wounds beneath his heavy brows, a blue as dark as the sea by night...all thin pale lips and clenched muscles
  
• Stannis had never learned to soften his speech, to dissemble or flatter; he said what he thought, and those that did not like it could be damned.
  

Analysis:

Stannis was serious even in childhood. He did not laugh. His parents found Patches in Volantis and Lord Steffon hoped that

“... perhaps in time he will even teach Stannis how to laugh.”

It didn't work. Stannis and Robert both watched as their parents were killed.

Maester Cressen took on the role of father to the three orphan boys. Renly was a happy child and loved attention. Robert and Stannis had a more adversarial relationship; "whatever he did, Robert had done first, and better."

We learn more about Stannis' thoughts on Robert. As King, Stannis often felt slighted. Robert never offered praise for his military feats. Robert thanked Stark for breaking the siege at Storm's End, but not Stannis for holding it. Robert blamed Stannis for losing Darry and the Targaryen babies. He was given Dragonstone instead of the lucrative Storm's End. He was not rewarded for 15 years of faithful service on Robert's council. In Stannis' speech about the slights from Robert, he does not mention the Greyjoy rebellion and whether or not his part in it earned him praise.

The Councilors

The aged maester has been with Stannis since his youth. Of the three Baratheon boys, Cressen loved Stannis best.

Stannis, my lord, my sad sullen boy, son I never had, you must not do this, don’t you know how I have cared for you, lived for you, loved you despite all? Yes, loved you, better than Robert even, or Renly, for you were the one unloved, the one who needed me most.....Is there anyone who cares for him but me?

Maester Cressen seeks to appeal to Stannis as a father might to consider compromise and alliance. He speaks gently to him, suggesting that he consider allying with his brother, the Starks or the Vale. The maester begins to make headway after suggesting a marriage alliance between Shireen and Robert Arryn.

Stannis furrowed his brow in thought. “Still... perhaps it is worth the trying...”

It is at this moment, just when Cressen has been successful at getting Stannis to consider all of his options, that Selyse, enters and speaks up.

“Must the rightful Lord of the Seven Kingdoms beg for help from widow women and usurpers?” a woman’s voice asked sharply.

She appeals to Stannis' sense of righteousness and justice, and invokes the one god. Cressen notes this and laments that the red lady from Asshai, Melisandre, has successfully turned Selyse.

Stannis' wife points out that he might have swords from several houses, on top of what he has from Dragonstone, but Stannis has already heard from Davos that he cannot rely on swords from other regions, especially those close with Storm's End or Highgarden. Davos had previously told Cressen that there was no hope with only the swords of Dragonstone.

“Only the false sort, and I’d not do that,” Davos said. “He had the truth from me.”

Davos also advised Stannis that his meager host would not be enough to grant him his rightful claim.

Selyse offers another way, a weapon Melisandre might possess that is greater than the swords he cannot hope for that are still tied up in Renly's cause.

For The Cause

At the moment, Stannis has control of the men and forces at Dragonstone. They are practicing and drilling and maintaining control of ports. However, there are few to his cause.

Dragonstone, old and strong though it was, commanded the allegiance of only a handful of lesser lords, whose stony island holdings were too thinly peopled to yield up the men that Stannis needed.

Denying Stannis Storm's End denied him a larger army. His men are becoming antsy. Stannis worries about the upcoming evening feast where his sellsails and sellswords will note how much he owes them for doing nothing and his bannermen lords will threaten to remove their levies if something doesn't happen. Nothing can happen without further assistance, which means allying with another who has declared himself king or with the Vale, but this does not sit well with Stannis.

What am I to tell them? What must I do now?”

Stannis needs something, something big to convince these lords to stay with him, even without the extra swords and pledges from other regions.

Maester Cressen was not woken for the feast. It is unusual. At the feast, Cressen tries once more to convince Stannis to make common cause. All are listening. Stannis announces he makes common cause with no one while Melisandre declares that Stannis has an ally in the Lord of Light. When Selyse commands Patches to give his fool's crown to the maester, Stannis looks angry but he allows it. This is also unusual for, as Maester Cressen notes, Stannis has never been cruel.

Melisandre stands (literally, not figuratively) alongside Maester Cressen during this. Patcheface's fool helm has been passed off for the evening and the red lady and maester become the entertainment. Everyone is quiet, and everyone watches as Cressen offers to share a glass of wine with Mel.

Earlier in the day, when Selyse interrupted Cressen's meeting with Stannis, the maester commented that Stannis did not share his wife's new faith. Davos had brought Stannis no hope, Maester Cressen had brought Stannis only advice to make alliances, while Selyse had brought hints of Melisandre's powers. We are not privy to what Selyse might have said Mel could do as Cressen was dismissed, nor do we know if Melisandre was brought in for a demonstration. All we know is that Selyse said that Melisandre has the power to read the flames and she has seen Stannis' victory.

The dinner had been worrying Stannis for he knew he needed to tell or do something that night if he wanted to keep control of the levies and sellsail/sword companies. It is unknown what occurred before Cressen arrived but I think we can reasonably assume that some sort of announcement was made concerning the maester. All eyes were on him but no eyes would meet his, as though they were waiting for something while fearing it at the same time. Davos is the only one who does and the only one to speak for Cressen.

Back to the shared glass of wine. Melisandre drinks first, leaving only a small amount for the maester. Maester Cressen swallows the rest and the strangler poison takes his life as she remains standing, unaffected, over him.

“What am I to tell them? What am I to do?” On the day when announcement comes that one season has left and another arrived, to convince his lords to stay, Stannis need only show that his new ally, the lady in red is worth more than the knights of summer he was not able to win to his side.

Stannis' Justice

A thread about Stannis would not be complete without some commentary on his relationship with Davos. The siege of Storm's End had lasted long enough for the garrison to run out of food. Davos sneaked his way past the Redwyne fleet into the castle and brought with him enough food to see the garrison through until Ned Stark came to lift the siege. In return, Stannis rewarded Davos with lands and knighthood but also decreed he must be punished for his years of crimes. Davos submitted so long as Stannis' hand swung the cleaver. He later became his loyal man.

Stannis was about 18 at the time of the siege. There are no stories of his harsh justice prior to this, only his serious nature. In a sense, Davos' deeds, rewards and punishment defined Stannis' identity for Westeros. Davos carries his knightly title with the onion ship as his sigil and wears his bag of fingerbones around his neck. The story might not have become so widespread if Davos wasn't a walking advertisement for it. The story also could also have been made to define Stannis as completely mad for punishing a person who came to help if Davos weren't known for being loyal to his liege or making mock of his missing fingernails.

We will eventually learn that Davos is aware that the punishment for smuggling can be death. Knowing this in hindsight, we have a straightforward reason for Stannis could have influenced respect from Davos. However, I think going forward, it would be useful to consider how and why Davos has been a continuing influence on Stannis' character.

[Ragnorak]

Nice summary Dr. Pepper.

I think this is a good distinction regarding Stannis and his breaking before bending. We'll learn later that this is the moment Stannis finally decides to try a new hawk, a red hawk. That choice itself is a form of bending, but he will break before he bends on his claim to the throne.

In rereading Tyrion and Arya it was noted that Martin specifically wrote them in a highly sympathetic light from their first chapters. I think it is the opposite with the introduction of Stannis. Ned clearly had a very high opinion of Stannis but here we see Stannis say the Ned is nothing to him. This chapter is told from the perspective of a man who pities Stannis back to his youth and the loss of his parents. He sees himself as a foster father for Stannis and he eventually gives his life for what he believes is protecting Stannis, yet Stannis is brusk and even comes across as rude when they speak. While on a reread I think it is easier to see that Stannis is simply being his normal blunt self, initially combined with his dismissive opinion of Ned the reader is left with a very unsympathetic feel for Stannis. This is only emphasized by his following Mel who comes across as a little creepy especially after her wine tasting with Cressen.

We don't hear see initial conversation with Davos that would likely place Stannis in a far more favorable light. We are deprived of seeing Stannis show gratitude for a dismal truth because it is honest and only see his initial distaste for being asked to accept less than what he is entitled to. We are not familiar enough with Stannis at this point to realize that even indulging Cressen here is something he would not do for almost anyone else.