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Will Jaime and Tyrion be dead by the end of the books?


OberynBlackfyre

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There's a neat theory floating around that Jaime is actually already dead but was killed "off-screen" as it were sometime after he trotted off with Brienne, since we learn later in ADWD he's been missing for some time. It doesn't seem like GRRM's style to kill an important POV character off in that way, but I like the theory.

As for the thread topic: Jaime, yes, absolutely, Tyrion, probably.

I know there's a good chance that he's the valonqar, but Jaime's role in the story seems kind of...finished, I guess. He seems to have reached a degree of peace with himself; he even wants to tell Myrcella and Tommen the truth when he next sees them (famous last words...), which guarantees, Ned and Rhaegar-style, that he'll die before he gets the chance to do so. Cersei and he seem so convinced they're going to die together, that it would be very subversive of GRRM to have Jaime die far away from Cersei in some godforsaken corner of the Riverlands and for her never to learn what happened to him. I also like the idea of Stoneheart forcing Jaime and Brienne to fight to the death. It would be awful and gut-wrenching and horrific, but kind of...perfect, I dunno.

As for Tyrion, I think it depends if he's a blooded Lannister or Aerys' bastard. If he's a blooded Lannister, I agree with Sand Snake No. 9: the kinslayer curse applies, and he's going to go down with the rest of House Lannister, which I suspect is doomed and will suffer the fate of the Reynes and the Tarbecks. Even if House Lannister scrapes through the series, I'm fairly confident that Tywin's line will be wiped out (fittingly, since he was so obsessed with legacy and prestige). That includes Jaime, Cersei....and Tyrion.

If he's Aerys' bastard, he gets out of the kinslayer curse, but Tyrion still seems like a prime candidate for a heroic death. There are lots of Jon/Dany/Tyrion parallels, I fully expect Jon and Dany to die before the end of the books, so to me, it makes sense that Tyrion would die along with the other two...although I guess if one of the three were to survive, it would probably be Tyrion. I don't know that GRRM would go so far as to kill off all three.

With all that said, speaking of Tyrion's potential Stark/Targ antagonists, it seems significant that Tyrion is likely going to be backing the winning horse (if you think a Tyrion/Dany alliance won't happen, I have a bridge I'd like to sell you), and that unlike the other Lannisters, he has established friendly or at least non-hostile relationships with three surviving Starks (Jon, Bran and Sansa, who still remembers him as "kind"), two of whom are likely going to play very extremely important roles in the next two books in the coming war, and whose favour would be a useful thing to have in an extremely Lannister-hostile North. It also strikes me as significant that the Starks who (justifiably) had it out for Tyrion--Cat and Robb--are both dead, and that Tyrion never wound up on Arya's list.

Not to mention that Tyrion cannot die without finding about Tysha and reuniting with Jaime.

Sure he can. If there' s one thing that I've learned reading this series, it's that GRRM isn't big on closure.

Plotwise, killing Tyrion and Jaime offers nothing to the story.

That wasn't the question, though. The question was "Will Jaime and Tyrion be dead by the end of the books?" Just because Jaime may play some role in the war against the Others as has been speculated (which I doubt, but whatever), doesn't mean that he'll survive to the end. Jaime and Tyrion could play X, Y, and Z roles in the plot and still be killed off in the last sentence of the books once they've done whatever. I expect Jaime to die well before the last half of ADOS, but I tend to think Tyrion would last until the last quarter of ADOS, unless GRRM was really going for shock value. "They're important to the story" might mean that they'll be "safe" for another book or so, but does not mean that they're going to survive the series.

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I don't see how Jaime is more of a main piece than say..... Bran.

Bran's story is important... but at the moment, he's very much in isolation and presumed dead by most other characters. He could feasibly die now and it wouldn't affect too much of what happened elsewhere. Jaime is not in isolation, however - his actions (or lack of actions) will affect Brienne, Lady Stoneheart, Sansa, Mycrella, Tommen, Tyrion, Cersei, perhaps even Stannis. When you then consider the ripple effect of those characters' actions too, you end up with quite a complicated web.

I would guess that four out of five of the contenders for the throne will die (there could be a marriage that might save a life) and that one or two POVs from the major families will die as well (I'm including advisors in that count, so we could lose Davos, Mel (I hope), Arianne or Areo Hotah (although with that axe his chances of survival are pretty good), Jon Connington (he seems doomed), etc. It seems almost certain that Cersei will die, and there's a good chance one of her children will die as well, Stannis, imo, is doomed, as is Jon, because there's no second act for saviors. So, yeah, I'm expecting the body count to be high, and it would not be at all surprising to me if Tyrion and Jaime bought the farm along with many others.

The body count will be high at the end. There's no way that key POV characters will reign victorious without the others suffering. But, as we've discovered in AFFC and ADWD, there's a long way to go before then.

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The more I think about it the more I believe that Jaime and Tyrion's stories are interlinked, or at least they are relative to one another, despite the two characters physically being worlds apart for the vast majority of the story. They are developing towards the characters being more similar to one another, whereas at the start of the books they are almost polar opposites - Jaime being physically fit, good looking, an accomplished warrior, yet rash and headstrong - and Tyrion being stunted, hideous, inept in battle, but intelligent and calculating.

If you watch the way the two characters develop they are slowly becoming more alike - Tyrion becomes something of a warrior despite his stature and understands Jaime's love of battle, he is also forced to make several rash and in some cases brave decisions. Whereas Jaime loses a hand and understands what it is to be deformed. Also towards the end Jaime starts to develop more cunning and guile to make up for the loss of his skill in battle. There's really countless examples of this throughout the characters' stories and almost every event takes them closer to one another's personalities.

So in answer, I kind of see them having a reunion. I actually see them both surviving, and possibly doing so together. I almost certainly see Jaime killing Cercei though. I believe this will happen after the death of Brienne. After that if Jaime survives I think he'll have a reunion with Tyrion. I suspect Tyrion will remain in Westeros and I think Jaime will get the "cowboy" ending, and ride off into the setting sun.

Failing that Jaime will give his life to save Tyrion.

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I had hopes for Jaime and Tommen surviving until the end until I found something on another thread...let me bounce this off y'all. Tell me what you think. Here's the setup...Jaime is standing vigil over Tywin's corpse and is speaking with Pycelle who seems to be the most upset of Tywin's visitors:

' "Ser Jaime, I have seen terrible things in my time," the old man siad. "Wars, battles, murders most foul...I was a boy in Oldtown when the grey plague took half the city and three-quarters of the Citadel. Lord Hightower burned every ship in port, closed the gates, and commanded his guards to slay all those who tried to flee, be they men, women, or babes in arms. They killed him when the plague had run its course. On the very day he reopened the port, they dragged him fdrom his horse and slit his throat, and his young son's as well. To this day the ignorant in Oldtown will spit at the sound of his name, but Quenton Hightower did what was needed. Your father was that sort of man as well. A man who did what was needed." ' AFFC, Jaime I, p 120 Bantam HC

Combine the above with Dany's vision in the HOTU where she sees 'a stone beast taking wing from a smoking tower'--greyscale spreading or Tyrion's(dwarf from the Rock=gargoyle) escape from the TOTH? We know greyscale has arrived in Westeros via Jon Connington. Lannisters (notably Tyrion) were blamed for burning structures beneath the city walls. Assuming Jaime somehow makes it back to KL, might he find greyscale and take measures to stop its spread? Then later blamed by the smallfolk for not being allowed to flee the epidemic with thier children? Throughout AFFC we find him thinking of Tywin, wondering what Tywin would do; essentially measuring himself up to THE Lannister of the House.

Just throwing it out there.

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The more I think about it the more I believe that Jaime and Tyrion's stories are interlinked, or at least they are relative to one another, despite the two characters physically being worlds apart for the vast majority of the story. They are developing towards the characters being more similar to one another, whereas at the start of the books they are almost polar opposites - Jaime being physically fit, good looking, an accomplished warrior, yet rash and headstrong - and Tyrion being stunted, hideous, inept in battle, but intelligent and calculating.

I agree that their stories are interlinked. Mostly because I feel that they both embody what it is to be a Lannister. Tyrion in a lot of ways IS Tywins son because he does what's needed to get the end results he desires. He also knows how to mask his intentions so that people are unable to question him. Jaime on the other hand doesn't know the meaning of subtlety, and in many ways WANTS his actions to be seen so no one can question his motivations. Although now his actions are very much more motivated by honor and principle than merely glory and ego, this is why I believe he WILL end up going down as one of the greatest LC's of the KG. I also believe though that he WANTS TO AND WILL tell Tommen and Myrcella that he is their sire, which will change everything, much to the chagrin of Cersei, and maybe even to the downfall of the rest of his house

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I had hopes for Jaime and Tommen surviving until the end until I found something on another thread...let me bounce this off y'all. Tell me what you think. Here's the setup...Jaime is standing vigil over Tywin's corpse and is speaking with Pycelle who seems to be the most upset of Tywin's visitors:

' "Ser Jaime, I have seen terrible things in my time," the old man siad. "Wars, battles, murders most foul...I was a boy in Oldtown when the grey plague took half the city and three-quarters of the Citadel. Lord Hightower burned every ship in port, closed the gates, and commanded his guards to slay all those who tried to flee, be they men, women, or babes in arms. They killed him when the plague had run its course. On the very day he reopened the port, they dragged him fdrom his horse and slit his throat, and his young son's as well. To this day the ignorant in Oldtown will spit at the sound of his name, but Quenton Hightower did what was needed. Your father was that sort of man as well. A man who did what was needed." ' AFFC, Jaime I, p 120 Bantam HC

I would definitely agree with you, however I feel a full on greyscale outbreak wouldn't fit itself very well into how short we have left of the books. Especially with everything else going on (The Others invading, tying up the remaining wars, etc) I think an outbreak of greyscale would make things "too busy". However, I do agree that I can see Jaime doing something along the lines of that, or I can even entertain the fact that the Pale Mare might make its way across the water to Westeros, which might be half the way that the Iron Fleet meets its end.

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I think they will both probly be dead by the end jamie just has to many people that will forever hate his guts and he cant properly defend himself any more and tyrion will probly be killed by the other lanisters for killing tywin if he comes back maybe he could live if he hides somewhere shave his head change his name and live his days hiding in bronns castle other wise i think someone will kill him but who knows maybe some how he lives if only to fullfill his promise to cersei

I will hurt you for this. A day will come when you think you are safe and happy, and your joy will turn to ashes in your mouth. And you will know the debt is paid.

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I think they will both probly be dead by the end jamie just has to many people that will forever hate his guts and he cant properly defend himself any more and tyrion will probly be killed by the other lanisters for killing tywin if he comes back maybe he could live if he hides somewhere shave his head change his name and live his days hiding in bronns castle other wise i think someone will kill him but who knows maybe some how he lives if only to fullfill his promise to cersei

I will hurt you for this. A day will come when you think you are safe and happy, and your joy will turn to ashes in your mouth. And you will know the debt is paid.

there is truth to this, but I think the other Lannisters might realize that Tyrion in the end might be the only way they can still survive and thrive as a House. Also, if he comes as support to Dany or Aegon, then he will be made head of House Lannister either way

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i dunno im not sure that dany will welcome him with open arms she might even just feed him to her dragons his brother killed her father i dont think she will trust him at all i know i wouldnt in her place

and one of the remaining family might already take over the lands and house they are probly sick of being treated like second class lannisters jaime cersei and tywin even tyrion all treated them like shit for the most part and looked down on them it could be there time to shine in their mind

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i dunno im not sure that dany will welcome him with open arms she might even just feed him to her dragons his brother killed her father i dont think she will trust him at all i know i wouldnt in her place

and one of the remaining family might already take over the lands and house they are probly sick of being treated like second class lannisters jaime cersei and tywin even tyrion all treated them like shit for the most part and looked down on them it could be there time to shine in their mind

mmm possibly about the other Lannisters, however I think that Cersei, Jaime and Tyrion would all have to die before they made a move..

And Dany might not welcome him at first, however I doubt that he will state who he is right away. He has deep knowledge of dragons and history, and the enemies she will face in Westeros, plus he will probably be known as the man who brought back Ben Plumm and the Second Sons to her cause....and Jorah can vouch for him as well which I think will at least make her not kill him straight away

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Jaime's going to be Cersei's valonqar and then die himself. They came in together, they're going out together. I'd be shocked if it went any other way.

hmm I can see that, however I also feel that Jaime has a lot more to prove. Very large foreshadowing when he is looking at the White Book and it says it's not even a quarter of the way completed...

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