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Becoming No One: Re-reading Arya


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Interesting comment. I know the Lyanna - Rhaegar tale has been accused of being cliche, but as you point out, there is a healthy dose of subversion to it. Both Lyanna and Rhaegar end up dead, and the realm plunged in chaos (of course, not personally by their doing, but as an unintended consequence).

I'm not sure it's all quite a subversive as that, tbh, Lyanna. Lyanna doesn't follow the true path of a noble woman and is severely punished for it and as a direct result the realm is plunged Into chaos (and never really recovers). This is surely following the Eve as the original sinner trope.

Anyway, sorry for the tangent. I'll try to be more on topic in my next post!

N

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I'm not sure it's all quite a subversive as that, tbh, Lyanna. Lyanna doesn't follow the true path of a noble woman and is severely punished for it and as a direct result the realm is plunged Into chaos (and never really recovers). This is surely following the Eve as the original sinner trope.

Anyway, sorry for the tangent. I'll try to be more on topic in my next post!

N

Interesting you bring this up-I have been meaning to type up an OP on how so many of GRRM's women seem follow the Eve archetype-Mel, Cersei, Lyanna and to some extent Cat.

Although perhaps Mel is more of a Jezebel. /OT

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Catelyn surely would be the Jezebel, a woman of different religion to her husband and his people who goes out to face her end bravely. Melisandre might be an Eve figure in that she embodies temptation with her offer of power, Cersei in regards to Jaime perhaps. The others no, I wouldn't say so.

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In Arya II, it struck me how much weight Arya still places on her relationship with Sansa, despite ignoring her in public. She's so attuned to Sansa's small gestures of unfriendliness that she notes Sansa's seating position (at an unimportant evening meal) and theorises about it:

She was seated between Septa Mordane and Jeyne Poole, as far from Arya as she could get without drawing a reproach from Father.

Then later on, she places enormous weight on Sansa (and Jeyne's) opinion:

It was all her fault, everything bad that had happened. Sansa said so, and Jeyne too.

Considering their differences, one might have imagined that Arya might have distanced herself from Sansa, deciding that the opinions of her brothers were far more important, but I think we see here (and in Arya I) that she still sees Sansa's approval as extremely significant, although she would never admit it. This could simply be a consequence of the constant comparisons made by the septa between her and Sansa, and their enforced time spent together as the only two girls; but I wonder if there was a greater closeness between Sansa and Arya when they were younger, and if Sansa's betrothal (and adolescence) threatened this. Ned's remarks here do seem to predict, symbolically, that their future lives are intertwined (or so I hope, anyway!)

Ned's parenting is all over the place. He isn't really a completely indulgent nor a completely repressive father - although he often lets misbehaviour go, he rarely seems to explain his reasoning for certain commands to his children initially, so his regime is pretty arbitary. It's as if he's playacting the medieval patriarch by issuing commands that ought not to be questioned, but then completely undermines his own authority by not punishing his children when they disobey. A lot of sensible explanations at the start for certain rules, followed by logical sanctions (e.g. Bran being supervised more closely if he continued to climb the castle walls, Arya being banned from running off at all if she went to certain dangerous places) would be much more effective, in my opinion. It frustrated me that he didn't bother to give Arya a fuller explanation of why Sansa might lie about the Trident incident, especially given that his aim in this conversation is to bring the sisters closer.

I was also struck by this line from Ned:

"The septa is doing no more than her duty, though gods know you have made it a struggle for the poor woman. Your mother and I have charged her with the impossible task of making you a lady."

Cat is sometimes criticised (unfairly, I believe) for having a negative attitude towards Arya, but this is much harsher than anything Cat ever thinks about her daughter. (The comparable example is when Arya remembers that Cat said if she made herself neat and tidy she could look like a lady, which is much more positive.) I think it's a rather unkind and counterproductive remark - if it's impossible for Arya to be a lady, why should she bother to try? It can't be read as a joke, either, because Ned's voice is described as 'curt and hard'.

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I wonder if this is to some extent author bias. Arya is already a likable character from her first chapter. There is almost no grey areas: the people she is rude to such as Septa Mordane and Joff and Cersei are already people we dislike. It is almost as if GRRM is pulling out all the stops to say you must side with this character.

I agree that there is authorial bias towards Arya in the first book, but I do think that Arya's ignorance of social norms is recognised by GRRM as a character flaw. Not to get ahead of the re-read, but we know by book three that Sansa's knowledge of heraldry is useful, and that her recognition of how court society functions is a vital element in her growing political savvy; neither of these skills are currently available to Arya.

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Having read the chapter I'll point to the change and contrasts in tone. The child's world of innocence and happiness giving way to disappointment and bitterness "This was the first time they had supped with the men since arriving in King's Landing. Arya hated it. She hated the sounds of their voices now...They'd been her friends, she'd felt safe around them, but now she knew that was a lie". The seasons are changing, the easy summer days are over winter is coming. I like her sharp descent into disillusionment, I think GRRM does this well. It feels right.

This is contrasted with the melancholy tone of The Ned, but Arya still has a potential for optimism and excitement as evidenced with the sword and the training that doesn't seem to be there for her father.

Education again (because once you've found yourself a dead horse you might as well give it a through flogging ;) ). Septa Mordane (the name suggests mordant I feel, almost as bad a teacher's name as Gradgrind) formal training, The Ned informal by example (dining with his men, listening to his people, Syrio again formal teaching methods. Both the Septa and the waterdancer have a distinct objective, to create a lady and a waterdancer respectively. With The Ned its more open ended, he's demonstrating what it is to be a successful Lord over a poor harsh land.

A couple of comments have picked up on the apparent inconsistency of his parenting style. He seems frighteningly laissez faire. You have to grow up very fast in The Ned's world as shown in his earlier conversation with Catelyn:

"Is he afraid?" Ned asked.

"A little," she admitted. "He is only three."

Ned frowned. "He must learn to face his fears. He will not be three forever. And winter is coming."

I wonder how much this is due to Winterfell being in the backwoods. Very isolated. The children can and will run about but generally won't get into serious trouble that they can't deal with.

I'm interested that there isn't a castle school at the Red Keep. Nothing to keep the hostage children busy or to prepare the next generation for leadership. King Bob and Queen Cersei are much more indifferent to education than the Starks it seems.

I suppose inadequate servants and advisers might be another theme. It is understandable that The Ned can't do everything, or even think of everything, but there doesn't seem to be anybody in his household who can step up and make sure that the children are adequately cared for and watched over either.

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I got the impression all the Stark children respected Ned as their father and feared him as far as matters of discipline were concerned. Arya is clearly wandering with Ned's knowledge and permission-- she gave him the flowers so he has to know. There is something desirable in having Arya actually see this land called the North that he rules as well as the South. The map is not the land. However permissive Ned may be, his children rarely defy him and clearly know not to talk back to him. Here's the section on Bran:

Alone all night in the Godswood isn't exactly the most permissive response.

I grew up in a world before cell phones and play dates. Children went out to play with instructions to be home before the street lights came on. It was hardly unusual for children to vanish from breakfast to dinner on any given Saturday. There was very little parental organized activity compared to today. Children organized their own games, had to come to a consesus on rules, act as referees and essentially elect leaders among their peer group. This was a huge part of a child's education. The degree of adult supervision in children's lives today is not just more intense than my youth, it is wholly alien to my childhood experience. I can only imagine it was more so in the world of the Middle Ages.

Ned is beginning his job as Hand and the immediate supervision of the girls is really the Septa's job. She is supposed to be a governess of sorts. Issues like Sansa being allowed to go off unsupervised with Joffrey would fall sqarely on her shoulders.

Ah, finally. Thank you, great post! :bowdown:

We actually don't see that much of Ned and him being a parent, mostly we saw him in KL being utterly out of place. But as a testimony to him being a good parent and an authoritative figure in spite of his shortcomings (no one's perfect) is how his children remember him and remember his words. Not to mention the Northerners calling him The Ned! I don't think that's how you remember an incompetent parent or ruler...

Interesting you bring this up-I have been meaning to type up an OP on how so many of GRRM's women seem follow the Eve archetype-Mel, Cersei, Lyanna and to some extent Cat.

Although perhaps Mel is more of a Jezebel. /OT

Any Liliths?

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Any Liliths?

Cersei seems to be the Lilith to Robert's Lyanna: a child devouring succubus that refused to submit to man, her rightful master.

Catelyn surely would be the Jezebel, a woman of different religion to her husband and his people who goes out to face her end bravely. Melisandre might be an Eve figure in that she embodies temptation with her offer of power, Cersei in regards to Jaime perhaps. The others no, I wouldn't say so.

Does this not sound like Mel, your grace?

But I have this against you, that you tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess and is teaching and seducing my servants to practice sexual immorality and to eat food sacrificed to idols.

Though this bit sounds closer to Cersei:

When Jehu came to Jezreel, Jezebel heard of it. And she painted her eyes and adorned her head and looked out of the window. And as Jehu entered the gate, she said, “Is it peace, you Zimri, murderer of your master?” And he lifted up his face to the window and said, “Who is on my side? Who?” Two or three eunuchs looked out at him. He said, “Throw her down.” So they threw her down. And some of her blood spattered on the wall and on the horses, and they trampled on her. Then he went in and ate and drank. And he said, “See now to this cursed woman and bury her, for she is a king's daughter.”
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seeing as Melisandre is neither married to Stannis nor has she been thrown down - then no, I don't think so! That's why I think she is at most, an Eve figure. But I don't think the Eve parallel is a strong one in GRRM for any of his women characters, it really has to be stretched to fit.

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seeing as Melisandre is neither married to Stannis nor has she been thrown down - then no, I don't think so! That's why I think she is at most, an Eve figure. But I don't think the Eve parallel is a strong one in GRRM for any of his women characters, it really has to be stretched to fit.

She is, for all intents and purposes, his wife-she is referred to as his red queen, they share a sexual relationship and he relies on her counsel.

She has not been cast down yet. :P

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On the Sun and the Moon line I think this follows through with their future paths. Sansa is surrounded by Lannisters who are constantly being compared to and associated with the sun. (This is a good symbolism starting point for those who feel Sansa is the "younger more beautiful.") Arya's clearest moon association is at the House of Black and White, but I seem to recall a good bit of moon phase references as she travels about Westeros. As opposite as they are typically considered, given Dany and Drogo's nicknames for each other I don't think they are antagonistic icons in Martin's view but complimentary ones. Also the connection between wolves and the moon is strong as is the connection between birds and the sun.

I see a similarity between Ned's response to Bran climbing to the top of the tallest tree to sleep and letting Arya keep Needle. In both cases he is bending to something that is clearly in their nature. I suspect that his reference to Lyanna here is a clue that his father did not bend to something clearly in Lyanna's nature and he sees this as a factor in her early death. His choice to want to bring Bran to KL because his kind nature would help bridge the hostility between Robb and Joffrey comes to mind too. This acceptance of a person's nature is a curious thing with Ned. It is one of the lessons he recalls from Lyanna when she spoke of Robert and love. I also think it is part of the reason we never see Ned blame anyone for Lyanna's death-- he is only ever sad about it but never really angry over it or at anyone.

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Wonderful write up and comments. Still missing that like button...

The pumpkin gone when Ned arrives. Did he miss autumn? Is he in his Winter already?

Arya refers to Ned as Father with a capital "F." We discussed this with Tyrion and Tywin. Lyanna first noted it here.

Each man (Jory and Ned) wear a new cloak-- the symbol of protection. Arya reflects on how they failed to protect Mycah as they would have in Winterfell. Ned also had to pull back a cloak to identify Mycah.

“Be seated,” Eddard Stark said. “I see you have started without me. I am pleased to know there are still some men of sense in this city.”

This is quite the contrast between Tywin's dining before the battle with Roose. Not only is everyone seated with the lord instead of a select few, but they begin eating without Ned. Instead of seeing this as a slight he refers to them as having sense. Ned's reference to the lack of men with sense combined with his arguing also makes him the Outsider on the Smaill Council.

“Know the men who follow you,” she heard him tell Robb once, “and let them know you. Don’t ask your men to die for a stranger.” At Winterfell, he always had an extra seat set at his own table, and every day a different man would be asked to join him. One night it would be Vayon Poole, and the talk would be coppers and bread stores and servants. The next time it would be Mikken, and her father would listen to him go on about armor and swords and how hot a forge should be and the best way to temper steel. Another day it might be Hullen with his endless horse talk, or Septon Chayle from the library, or Jory, or Ser Rodrik, or even Old Nan with her stories.

This is the type of passage I would expect to find in Jon after he is elected to LC. It would seem that Arya's associating with the smallfolk is very much an emulation of Ned and his lessons to Robb. In the Tyrion reread we're on the riot when Myrcella sails for Dorne. The contrast of views and treatment of smallfolk between the two families is so striking.

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I have a like button Ragnorak - so there!

The nice thing about that dining passage you quote is that it reinforces The Ned's later the pack survives comment and emphases Arya's isolation. The stark way is communal, but here is the little girl feeling very much cut out and on her own by her recent experiences.

In a broader sense all the stark children end up on their own being ground through very individual courses of action and development despite the apparent family commitment to sticking together and being a wolf pack.

Their being forced apart by events however is in contrast to the lannisters who seem intent on tearing themselves apart as a family.

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On the Sun and the Moon line I think this follows through with their future paths. Sansa is surrounded by Lannisters who are constantly being compared to and associated with the sun. (This is a good symbolism starting point for those who feel Sansa is the "younger more beautiful.") Arya's clearest moon association is at the House of Black and White, but I seem to recall a good bit of moon phase references as she travels about Westeros. As opposite as they are typically considered, given Dany and Drogo's nicknames for each other I don't think they are antagonistic icons in Martin's view but complimentary ones. Also the connection between wolves and the moon is strong as is the connection between birds and the sun.

I believe GRRM is playing again with the opposites as complementary motif… Sun is a masculine entity in most mythologies, whereas the Moon is a feminine entity, and usually they’re siblings, though there’s a Germanic myth where both Sun and Moon are females, sisters Sunna and Sinthgunt, and they couldn’t be more different regarding their character, like Arya and Sansa. But rather than a mythological comparison of storylines or looking for foreshadowing, the Sunna and Sinthgunt dichotomy made me think that perhaps a Jungian interpretation of that line would suit them better because, as I see it, it refers to the sisters’ personalities.

For once, our Ned is being a bard and giving a very poetical description of their personalities that could be summed up grosso modo like this: the sun is hot = Arya is fiery; the moon is cold = Sansa is calm. Psychologists who follow Jung’s theories say that the Sun as a masculine principle, represents an active personality, whereas the Moon, as a feminine principle, represents the quiet instinctive dimension of the personality (Jungian psychology doesn’t use “feminine” and “masculine” as gender-specific labels, I must add, it applies to both sexes). Both complement and aid to balance each other as day and night, two sides of nature; the Sun is a fraternal figure, it generates its own luminosity and is the stern, just, punitive, and generative side; it represents power, strength, energy, force and clarity, and one of its symbols is the face (quite relevant to Arya’s arc). The Moon normally symbolises the gentle, feminine, redemptive and nourishing side; it is a maternal and maidenly figure, and as she doesn’t produce her own light but relies on the Sun’s, she’s the symbol par excellence of subtlety, introversion, diplomacy, receptivity, intuition, passivity, purity, goodness, emotion, perception, balance and renewal.

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Little Wing, not every point is picked up and responded to, even if it is really insightful and interesting. Even points that I make aren't always responded to! :laugh: Different things strike and appeal to different people. That's just the way things are. Some times ideas are picked up later and really come into their own, pages and days after they were originally made.

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Oh, I know - and I'm not expecting it to be addressed either, it's just that we've gone astray with talking about Ned (myself included... it's peer pressure I tell ya! :laugh: ) when there were legitimate Arya questions/ideas presented. :dunno: Btw, I really liked how Rapsie made a summary of all our comments earlier, that was sweet.

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Oh, I know - and I'm not expecting it to be addressed either, it's just that we've gone astray with talking about Ned (myself included... it's peer pressure I tell ya! :laugh: ) when there were legitimate Arya questions/ideas presented. :dunno: Btw, I really liked how Rapsie made a summary of all our comments earlier, that was sweet.

I am waiting for the later bits, when she goes cat hunting, actually.

Also, Ned's one of those parents that drive me mad-stick to your boundaries man!

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