Becoming No One: Re-reading Arya

[Ragnorak]

“I can be strong too. I can be as strong as Robb.”

Sansa later thinks she can be as brave as Robb, IIRC. Bran has similar thoughts too. Robb is already viewed by his younger siblings as an icon of strength, bravery and a family protector. It reminds me a bit of Ned thinking it was all meant for Brandon and that Brandon would know what to do.

Even when she thinks of escaping she thinks of family.

She could find Nymeria in the wild woods below the Trident, and together they’d return to Winterfell, or run to Jon on the Wall.

If only she could climb like Bran, she thought; she would go out the window and down the tower, run away from this horrible place

Ned thinks of his own father, brother and sister too. Apparently he speaks so rarely of them that his mentioning them conveys a certain seriousness to this talk.

I suspect Ned knows it was either Robb or Jon who gave her the sword. I wonder if either he or Brandon gave one to Lyanna.

[Little Wing]

Sansa later thinks she can be as brave as Robb, IIRC. Bran has similar thoughts too. Robb is already viewed by his younger siblings as an icon of strength, bravery and a family protector. It reminds me a bit of Ned thinking it was all meant for Brandon and that Brandon would know what to do.

Even when she thinks of escaping she thinks of family.

Ned thinks of his own father, brother and sister too. Apparently he speaks so rarely of them that his mentioning them conveys a certain seriousness to this talk.

I suspect Ned knows it was either Robb or Jon who gave her the sword. I wonder if either he or Brandon gave one to Lyanna.

Hm... looking to to their elders for example and, in Ned's case, looking back into the past, how he looked up to his elders...interesting. The Stark connection. I wonder if the next books will bring forth more of their history, the Kings of Winter and the "wolf's blood"? This ripple effect of looking to each other for support or example seems like history repeating itself, like the Starks always relied on each other. Them being apart and not having a Stark in Winterfell seems to be a crucial hindrance...

Arya's already feeling the effect of the family being physically apart in this chapter, it's almost as if she doesn't recognize anyone from Winterfell that has come to KL, and shows she's as perceptive as Jon.

Personally I think there is a lot of nice symbolism about needle, especially the points made about sewing things back together as needle is both a weapon and named after an item that ties things back together. A hint of foreshadowing about where Arya's role might end up?

Ah, yes, I loved that observation! I think most of the children will be stitching the kingdom back together, one way or another, making do with what their elders have left them or done and Arya's role may be a large one, but later on about that.

[Xray the Enforcer]

[mod] This is a re-read thread. It has a very specific structure [chronological] and goal. Further derailing, complaining, personal beefing and navel-gazing will result in suspension of posting privileges. Thank you. [/mod]

[butterbumps!]

On the Sun and the Moon line I think this follows through with their future paths. Sansa is surrounded by Lannisters who are constantly being compared to and associated with the sun. (This is a good symbolism starting point for those who feel Sansa is the "younger more beautiful.") Arya's clearest moon association is at the House of Black and White, but I seem to recall a good bit of moon phase references as she travels about Westeros. As opposite as they are typically considered, given Dany and Drogo's nicknames for each other I don't think they are antagonistic icons in Martin's view but complimentary ones. Also the connection between wolves and the moon is strong as is the connection between birds and the sun.

I definitely agree that Ned hadn't meant this in an antagonistic way, but I'd wondered if it went slightly further that neither daughter is truly either. I actually think of Sansa in terms of the moon quite frequently as well, from the fertility associated with the fixation on her "moon blood," her midnight outings in the godswood, the moonstones she wears in her hair, her sojourn at the Eyrie (Falcon + Moon). I know Arya tends to be associated with the darkness and Sansa the light, but in a strange (and potentially erroneous) way, I see both girls strongly associated with the moon, and possibly with the sun as well (though this is perhaps more clear for Sansa, the sun is a "masculine" symbol, which works for Arya as well here, and will keep my eye out for more).

I think it plays to the notion of both sun and moon as complements yet seemingly opposed, and what I find fascinating is that both Arya and Sansa can be associated with both.

[1234567]

I wonder if the next books will bring forth more of their history, the Kings of Winter and the "wolf's blood"? This ripple effect of looking to each other for support or example seems like history repeating itself, like the Starks always relied on each other.

Arya's already feeling the effect of the family being physically apart in this chapter, it's almost as if she doesn't recognize anyone from Winterfell that has come to KL, and shows she's as perceptive as Jon.

Indeed, Arya seems to be the most out of her depth in KL. It is a hostile environment to her. She feels alienated from everyone around her and I wonder how much this has to do with Mycah's death and the awful truth she realises in the hall at dinner, that no one cares but her. Again I think this is a facet of how Arya perceives the injustice of the world around her. She was the only one who cared. She is alone in her grief.

Also the 50 men in the hall that holds 200, emphasizes that the "pack" is small. They are only a fraction of Winterfell and by extention the North. In many ways the men there are also lone wolves.

I definitely agree that Ned hadn't meant this in an antagonistic way, but I'd wondered if it went slightly further that neither daughter is truly either. I actually think of Sansa in terms of the moon quite frequently as well, from the fertility associated with the fixation on her "moon blood," her midnight outings in the godswood, the moonstones she wears in her hair, her sojourn at the Eyrie (Falcon + Moon). I know Arya tends to be associated with the darkness and Sansa the light, but in a strange (and potentially erroneous) way, I see both girls strongly associated with the moon, and possibly with the sun as well (though this is perhaps more clear for Sansa, the sun is a "masculine" symbol, which works for Arya as well here, and will keep my eye out for more).

I think it plays to the notion of both sun and moon as complements yet seemingly opposed, and what I find fascinating is that both Arya and Sansa can be associated with both.

I think there is an interesting dynamic in the active and passive roles of the moon and the sun. The Moon is more active, as it waxes and wanes and appears closer and further away from the earth but underneath it is still, whilst the sun is passive on the visible surface and active underneath. I thought this seems to represent both sisters, but then your point above about the moon and it's association with both girls made me wonder if the are both represented by the moon: one light and one dark, like the light and darkside of the moon. This symbolism would also tie in with the weirwood and ebony doors we see through out the series.

Ah, yes, I loved that observation! I think most of the children will be stitching the kingdom back together, one way or another, making do with what their elders have left them or done and Arya's role may be a large one, but later on about that.

Very true! Also it maybe that the war against the Others sews society back together because they have a common foe. In that way a sword becomes a needle.

[1234567]

RAIPSE: Great introduction. I wish to reference the first sentence, “Arya’s stitches were crooked again” (68). In Martin's first sentences of his POV’s, I often find a little gem. Martin’s verb choice of “crooked” strikes me as providential, for so much of Arya’s journey through the novels is “crooked” – often off course, in one direction, then another.

Excellent point. Also could it equate to Jon's staement that different roads lead to the same castle: one person's sitches might be crooked and another's straight, but at the end of the day the dress is still stiched. The goal has been acomplished just in different ways.

Think of the Greek Fates who spin the thread of life. The fates control the destiny, guided by Zeus, of humankind.

Arya seems to be following a path, quite crooked, sewing with her needle just at Clotho, Lachesis, and Atropos spin a thread of life. She is even there at the end of some lives.

The Wiki says: In Greek mythology, the Moirai (Ancient Greek: Μοῖραι, "apportioners", Latinized as Moerae)—often known in English as the Fates—were the white-robed incarnations of destiny (Roman equivalent: Parcae, euphemistically the "sparing ones", or Fata; also equivalent to the Germanic Norns). Their number became fixed at three: Clotho (spinner), Lachesis (allotter) and Atropos (unturnable).

They controlled the metaphorical thread of life of every mortal from birth to death. They were independent, at the helm of necessity, directed fate, and watched that the fate assigned to every being by eternal laws might take its course without obstruction. The gods and men had to submit to them, but in the case of Zeus he is portrayed in two ways: as the only one who can command them (the Zeus Moiragetes) or as the one who is also bound to the Moiras as incarnation of the fates.^[1] In the Homeric poems Moira or Aisa, is related with the limit and end of life, and Zeus appears as the guider of destiny. In the Theogony of Hesiod, the three Moirai are personified, and are acting over the gods.^[2] Later they are daughters of Zeus and Themis, who was the embodiment of divine order and law. In Plato's Republic the Three Fates are daughters of Ananke (necessity).^{[3](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moirai)}

I think this also ties in with the mythology of the Norns in Norse culture:

Wiki:

The Norns (Old Norse: norn, plural: nornir) in Norse mythology^[1] are female beings who rule the destiny of gods and men, a kind of dísir comparable to the Fates in Greek mythology.

According to Snorri Sturluson's interpretation of the Völuspá, the three most important norns, Urðr (Wyrd), Verðandi and Skuld come out from a hall standing at the Well of Urðr (well of fate) and they draw water from the well and take sand that lies around it, which they pour over Yggdrasill so that its branches will not rot.^[2] These norns are described as three powerful maiden giantesses (Jotuns) whose arrival from Jötunheimr ended the golden age of the gods.^[2]

^{It also mentions that they may well be an influence from classical culture that went North through time. However it is interesting that they also incorporate Giants and Water, in particular a well of fate. However we haven't reached those chapters yet so I shall refrain from commenting further!}

[Ragnorak]

I definitely agree that Ned hadn't meant this in an antagonistic way, but I'd wondered if it went slightly further that neither daughter is truly either. I actually think of Sansa in terms of the moon quite frequently as well, from the fertility associated with the fixation on her "moon blood," her midnight outings in the godswood, the moonstones she wears in her hair, her sojourn at the Eyrie (Falcon + Moon). I know Arya tends to be associated with the darkness and Sansa the light, but in a strange (and potentially erroneous) way, I see both girls strongly associated with the moon, and possibly with the sun as well (though this is perhaps more clear for Sansa, the sun is a "masculine" symbol, which works for Arya as well here, and will keep my eye out for more).

I think it plays to the notion of both sun and moon as complements yet seemingly opposed, and what I find fascinating is that both Arya and Sansa can be associated with both.

I was pondering Milady's post (I'm always up for Jungian psychology and mythology) and was coming to a very similar conclusion. The psychological aspect would imply that both aspects fit both of them. Ned's advice has a similar implication-- you are both complimentary aspects that need each other.

Jon has a good bit of both sun and moon references. The Wall is almost always described as having a mood that is the byproduct of how the sun hits it. Val's trip is scheduled around the moon and she looks liek a moon maiden. I think his trip north of the Wall has several moon references as well. Bran's weirwood paste chapter has a lot of moon references too. I was looking for an Old God/Seven sun and moon connection, but it seems imperfect and still eludes me.

Although Sansa's wolf is dead and Arya's is only "missing" both girls have literally lost a part of themselves given the warg aspect. This isn't fully apparent to readers at this point in the series, but I think most even on the first read realize this is no small thing.

In Tyrion we noted that he was travelling North (a Stark direction) while his siblings travelled South. Benjen offered him a bearskin cloak which he took. Cersei demanded a wolfskin which Ned denies her by sending Lady North. On one journey we have a Stark offering a Lannister protection and the other we have a Lannister depriving Starks of protection. Cersei's taking Lady in place of Nymeria shows she is treating the whole family as one interchangeable enemy which is part of Ned's pack speech. Cersei wanting a wolf skin to wear also strikes me a bit like this idea of Boltons flaying Starks as a means of trying to become skinchangers.

[Elba the Intoner]

Yay, I am finally getting caught up and am excited for this reread! I just wanted to say about this chapter that I think it's very touching and probably is one of the first times I got teary eyed. I know Ned has taken a lot of ribbing on here of late, but the way he handles Arya here I think is beautiful. How he comforts her when she starts crying that it was her fault that Micah died, and how afterwards Arya says she never loved him more than in that instant is very moving and well written. Arya's sense of isolation is palpable, but at least after this talk steps are taken to make her feel more comfortable.

[Lummel]

I was pondering Milady's post (I'm always up for Jungian psychology and mythology) and was coming to a very similar conclusion. The psychological aspect would imply that both aspects fit both of them. Ned's advice has a similar implication-- you are both complimentary aspects that need each other...

I like all this too, thanks Milady, Butterbumps and Ragnorak for bringing those points out. It comes back to the "the pack survives" for me - unity in diversity. The pack needs the complimentary aspects to thrive. Even though at a surface level they look inextricably opposed - like Arya and Sansa, at a deeper level they can only be whole when they are together.

Agree with Elba too on The Ned. I like that actually he is very involved in the emotional life of his children. As a father, even if he is also very much the Father, he is the polar opposite to Tywin who seems the disciplinarian who pushes his children towards distinct goals and identities. The Ned seems prepared to let the children develop.

[Winter's Knight]

Rather than sun/moon comparisons, wouldn't Sansa/Arya be better characterised as full moon/new moon?

[1234567]

Rather than sun/moon comparisons, wouldn't Sansa/Arya be better characterised as full moon/new moon?

Their differing natures and interest have a Yin and Yang quality to them: Two different halves of the same whole.

[Lyanna Stark]

Agree with Elba too on The Ned. I like that actually he is very involved in the emotional life of his children. As a father, even if he is also very much the Father, he is the polar opposite to Tywin who seems the disciplinarian who pushes his children towards distinct goals and identities. The Ned seems prepared to let the children develop.

It underlines that parenting is hard, just like ruling is hard. In Westeros, nothing is ever easy like it perhaps is in other works of fantasy fiction. Ned tries to be a good Hand to the King and a good father to his children, but he often has doubts or feels he is just not getting anywhere. However as we see later from Sansa's and Arya's chapters once Ned is gone, they loved and cherished their father, so in that way, he does succeed in a far better way than Tywin who is mostly loathed by his children. The one thing the Lannister children seem to miss about Tywin is that he was a guarantee for power, but nobody misses his lovely personality and his pleasant interactions.

It also asks the question, what is a successful parent? The one who got his daughter to become queen and his son a famous knight, or the parent who cared about and tried to understand his children, like Ned does with Arya and this chapter.

EDIT: eek grammar

[Little Wing]

Oh, I agree. As I've mentioned earlier, it's how Ned's children remember him and his words, not to mention the Northerners calling him The Ned that speaks of him being respected and loved - I wouldn't say an incompetent parent or leader leaves such a legacy. Tywin preferred people fearing him, so that's what he got. After someone you fear dies, you feel relief and that's about it, I guess. I don't think Ned was a perfect parent, but I do think he found that happy medium - his children both love him and respect him.

[Ragnorak]

Also Ned's lesson here takes. Arya will become very focused on "her pack." Lummel was just observing the contrast to this in Tyrion where the Lannister "harsh lessons" fail to teach the intended lesson and primarily breed resentment.

[Lyanna Stark]

Also Ned's lesson here takes. Arya will become very focused on "her pack." Lummel was just observing the contrast to this in Tyrion where the Lannister "harsh lessons" fail to teach the intended lesson and primarily breed resentment.

Oh indeed. I love seeing Ned's parenting style with Arya in particular (since we get a lot of it actually on stage in her chapters) but also how his other children (including Jon) remember him and draw strength and pride from his memory. As all over the place as he seems, it's very clear that Ned was a very loving and caring parent who actually wanted to understand his children too, and not just make them successful. He wanted them to be happy.

I read an essay some time ago about the Lannister family vs the Stark and how the Starks have a focus on sticking together despite it all, while the Lannisters are successful at beating outside enemies, but that they also tear eachother apart from within. Ned's words to Arya here work like the basis for what is different between the Starks and the Lannisters.

Ned's words talk about how Sansa and Arya need to accept each other as people, and that they need each other to survive. That, to me, points to something deeper and more meaningful than just "stick together against a common enemy". It's about supporting and helping each other. That's very unlike the Lannisters who may seem as a united front, but really as we have seen with Tywin vs Tyrion and Tyrion vs Cersei, they spend almost more time plotting against each other than to defeat outside enemies.

[Little Wing]

Also Ned's lesson here takes. Arya will become very focused on "her pack." Lummel was just observing the contrast to this in Tyrion where the Lannister "harsh lessons" fail to teach the intended lesson and primarily breed resentment.

Indeed. The part where Ned says he could break Needle over his knee if he so desired also speaks of him knowing he has the power to do so, to enforce his strength and authority, but just because you can break something, doesn't mean you should. He teaches compassion by his deeds. He chooses not to break Needle or take it away from Arya. Again, trusting his children and thereby giving them a sense of independence, obligation and worth ("father trusts me, I mustn't let him down" sort of feeling) seems better than being strict because "I know better, I'm the adult". Leading/teaching by example is one of Ned's strengths but his communication skills mayhaps needed more work?

[Lummel]

The importance of choosing to use power or not also croped up in the ADWD Daenerys chapters. Power is a major theme (in case the book title "A Game of Thrones" hadn't given that away in the first place!), but what I like is that there is no gulf between the personal and the political. The is a unity within the person and their approach in both areas of life. This probably shouldn't be a surprise because the family is politics - at least at the level of lordly families like the starks and the lannisters.

This is a nice way of introducing us to the world of Westeros I find. The childish quarrel between Sansa and Arya has the backdrop of the real political situation that the Starks are faced with. But The Ned is drawing on the same skill set and approaches to deal with both.

I suppose the point about power and force links Arya II to the incident on the Trident. The Ned can break Needle, but he chooses not to. As Little Wing noted his restraint and respect for her inspires Arya to respect her father's words. Down on the Trident Arya gave into the desire to use physical strength as a solution toher problem with grim results.

Looking ahead "The child is the father of the man". Do Arya and her siblings live up to the best example of their parents or fall back on more baser drives?

Still lovely chapter. I think its great how Arya believes that she's fooled Fat Tom!

[Blisscraft]

Just a couple of things about fighting - This chapter begins with, "Her father had been fighting with the council again." What stands out is that fighting with the council is not the same thing for Ned as fighting with Ice. Arya can see that in his face. It's a wearisome battle of social aggression. The next mention of fighting is the "Tourney of the Hand." As soon as the subject is brought up Arya sees that Ned is "not happy about it." Although, everyone else seems abuzz about the Tourney.

A tourney is a fighting game. It isn't a real battle, although one can still get hurt or possibly die (as we see later). However, to someone like Ned, who has truly fought in wars, it is not an exciting event, but rather "the last thing in the world that [he] would have wished."

The Tourney becomes a springboard from which we learn that Arya and Sansa are still fighting. Ned says, after a bitter exchange between Sansa and Arya, "I am weary unto death of this endless war you two are fighting." This type of fighting, social aggression, is the same type of soul destroying war occuring in the council chamber. Also, social aggression is a type of battle more suited to females than to males.

Generally, females fight with gossip, the withdrawl of affection and exclusion. Females rarely, especially in Westeros, fight with physical aggression like the males do. This chapter is a great example of the female war being waged between these sisters. FIrst, there is exclusion and withdrawl of affection. Sansa, Septa, and Jeyne are seated as far away from Arya as possible. The refenced comment above by Sansa to Arya about the Tourney is another exclusion. Arya expressed displeasure at the thought of attending the Tourney (perhaps siding with Ned?) and Sansa says, "It will be a splendid event. You shan't be wanted." As for an example, gossip, Jeyne supplies a grisly exaggerated tale which amounts to the butcher's boy presented to the butcher as if the boy were butchered.

No one these female fighting techniques should come as anything new between the sisters as this was part of the sewing circle earlier. However, Arya, as a vicitm of this type of fighting, prefers a more direct approach, a male approach. Jon sees this and give her a sword, ironically named Needle. Once Arya "eludes" Fat Tom and bars herself behind her door, she digs through her chest, through all of the silks and satins and velvets, the "girlie" things to find her buried treasure, Needle. Once the discussion begins with Ned, Ayra says, "I don't want to be a lady." Ned can see she means it. So the chapter ends with Arya learning how to fight with her sword and not like a lady.

[brashcandy]

Great work on the chapter analysis Lyanna :) and very insightful comments from everyone so far. The despair and loneliness that Arya feels at the beginning of the chapter is replaced by a sense of purpose and meaning by the end when she begins her first lesson with Syrio. When her father comes to see her, she goes to the door forgetting that she's still holding Needle, indicating that already the sword has become an essential part of her. Related to this is where she hides Needle, beneath her silk and satin clothing, which she roughly pulls out of her chest to reach the sword. Needle isn't simply a weapon, but representative of Arya's identity, and her treatment of the symbols of ladyhood - the fancy dresses - underscores her declaration to Ned that she doesn't want to be a lady. Later on we will see Sansa hiding Sandor's cloak beneath her summer silks as well, suggesting that although both girls have been separated from their wolves, they have each received valuable replacements.

On Monday, I'll be posting on Arya III along with a snippet from Eddard V :)

[Fire Eater]

Good comparison of Tywin and Ned's parenting, Lummel. Ned and Tywin are pretty much foils for one another. Ned was a bad politician but a good father while Tywin was good politician but a terrible father.

Confucius once stated that the ruler's family was a microcosm of the realm. Ned seems to have understood that to some degree. Tywin's failure was partly stemmed by his failure to attend to the needs of his children. Cersei took her feelings toward Tyrion from her father. The realm Tywin rules resembles his own family: different factions fighting each other. Much of the problems the Lannisters face stem from Tywin's failure as a father. The War of the Five Kings starts when the parentage of Cersei's children is revealed. Tywin's death is at the hands of his son for his cruelty. If Tywin had been a better father, he would have seen the true extent of Cersei and Jaime's relationship, as well as Tyrion's worth.

Ned displays compassion towards Arya thinking of his late sister, Lyanna. He understands that if he breaks the sword, she will be less likely to heed his words, and understands that even if he breaks the sword it wouldn't end Arya's desire for it, or to learn how to fight.