R+L=J v.34

[Real Heir of Bear Island]

WOW! I feel thick as a castle wall right now. I just noticed something. I'm sure somebody has a thread about this but I could not find. If so perhaps somebody can point me in the right direction.

I just realized, that Jon, condemmed Mance's son, to grow up as a bastard when he is actually the son of a King. This is EXACTLY like what Ned and Lyanna did to Jon. I can't believe I never caught the paralell until just now. MAN I'M THICK!

[Lady Octarina]

I can't remember the exact quote but, in one of the Jaime chapters, doesn't he remember Hightower telling that their job is to serve the king, not judge him. If he really was on Rhaegar's side of a possible coup, that seems like a pretty clear judgement... :rolleyes:

Not to sound conspiratorial or anything, but if I was planning with the prince to overthrow his father, that's exactly what I would say to the newest and youngest member of the Kingsguard - a boy they barely know, still too idealistic to be trusted, and son of the second most influential man in the kingdom. Hightower could be lying, it is as simple as that, or just making a veiled bitter complain about the life he chose that Jaime was just too young and trusting to understand for what it was.

[corbon]

I thought Selmy and Darry had already left to regroup the army and replace JonCon commanding, also I thought Martell had also already left to lead the Dornish forces. Whst is the source of your info?

Jaime asked Rhaegar to let him come and for Darry to stay behind in his place. Darry can't stay behind in his place if he's not there.

Seems clear that the forces have been regrouped and gathered, and now Rhaegar is ready to lead them (all, including the sun-commanders) off to battle.

[wolfy]

OK, a couple of questions about this topic.

If R+L=J and N+AD=? and John Connington took a baby from KL (presumably Aegon) then isn't there a baby missing? Because if AD is SL then she appears to have had a child (both from Barry Selmy's recall and Lemore's stretch marks), plus JS, plus the child rescued from the sacking of KL. Three babies, only two shown up yet, ergo missing baby (or sixteen year old, boy or girl). And don't tell me it wa stillborn or I will tell you that AD fell off a tower.

After R gets sent after the Knoght of the Flowers R+L are discovered somewhere around Harrenhall (wasn't there some mention somewhere of a Stark footman coming across the pair, I have some re-checking to do?) anyway I think that the footman may have been Hodor - Old Nan tells a story where he went South and came back like that, unless I made this up. Anyway my theory runs that the question isn't 'What happened to Hodor?' it is 'Who first warged Hodor?' with the possibilities being R or L (both have been suggested as possible wargs) and after reading this thread I would add Benjen as a possibility.

Also regarding the Tower of Joy. It doesn't say how Howland Reed prevented Ned's death at the hands of Arthur Dayne. It also doesn't actually say that Howland or Ned killed Arthur Dayne. (yes I really want Mance Rayder to be Arthur Dayne)

At the Tower Dayne says that "We swore an oath" but doesn't say which oath, my guess is that the oath Dayne refers to starts, "For the Night is Dark and Full of Terrors".

Just some ideas, let me know how vastly wide of the mark I am.

[Dragonfish]

OK, a couple of questions about this topic.

If R+L=J and N+AD=? and John Connington took a baby from KL (presumably Aegon) then isn't there a baby missing? Because if AD is SL then she appears to have had a child (both from Barry Selmy's recall and Lemore's stretch marks), plus JS, plus the child rescued from the sacking of KL. Three babies, only two shown up yet, ergo missing baby (or sixteen year old, boy or girl). And don't tell me it wa stillborn or I will tell you that AD fell off a tower.

I don't think Ned and Ashara had a child at all, and I think baby Aegon is fake, and the current "Aegon" is a fraud.

After R gets sent after the Knoght of the Flowers R+L

It was the Knight of the Laughing Tree. The Knight of Flowers is Ser Loras.

After R gets sent after the Knoght of the Flowers R+L are discovered somewhere around Harrenhall (wasn't there some mention somewhere of a Stark footman coming across the pair, I have some re-checking to do?) anyway I think that the footman may have been Hodor - Old Nan tells a story where he went South and came back like that, unless I made this up.

You did make this up. Absolutely none of this is mentioned in the books.

At the Tower Dayne says that "We swore an oath" but doesn't say which oath, my guess is that the oath Dayne refers to starts, "For the Night is Dark and Full of Terrors".

Check the context. One of them first says "The Kingsguard do not flee." Then Dayne says "We swore a vow." They're clearly referring to their vow as Kingsguard.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Just some ideas, let me know how vastly wide of the mark I am.

Pretty wide, but Dragonfish set you straight. ;)

[wolfy]

Then how do you explain AD (assuming that she becomes Septa Lemore) having stretch marks? Or Selmy assuming that her shild was still born?

And their vow as Kingsguard has them at the Tower of Joy for what reason again? The Kingsguard oath is to Aerys not Rhaegar.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Then how do you explain AD (assuming that she becomes Septa Lemore) having stretch marks? Or Selmy assuming that her shild was still born?

Assuming that Ashara is even Septa Lemore (I'm 50/50 on that myself), Dragonfish didn't say that Ashara never had a child. He said she likely never had a child with Ned.

And their vow as Kingsguard has them at the Tower of Joy for what reason again? The Kingsguard oath is to Aerys not Rhaegar.

They were there because the new king — Jon — was there.

[Dragonfish]

And their vow as Kingsguard has them at the Tower of Joy for what reason again? The Kingsguard oath is to Aerys not Rhaegar.

As Apple says, they were at the tower following the Sack because that's where their king was. Or at least, that's the argument that concerns most of the threads about the Kingsguard at the ToJ.

Now, before the Sack, they would have been there simply because they were ordered to be there, either by Aerys or Rhaegar (the latter actually can issue orders, but those orders would presumably be trumped by any orders from Aerys). This would not have conflicted with their vow to protect the king, because Aerys would have had other Kingsguard protecting him.

[wolfy]

I would go along with Ashara having a child with someone else (another Rhaegar sprog? is that the hint Martin is dropping in the interview linked earlier in the thread?) but that only raises more questions than it answers.

I am being told (mainly by dragonfish) that you know exactly what the oath Dayne is referring to is. You don't, it doesn't say anywhere. And I am familiar with the arguments for why it makes perfect sense for the Kingsguard to be hundreds of miles South of anywhere near the war while their King, his children, his heir and all their families are killed but they stay to guard some woman (who is dying btw) from the North so that they can try to prop up his infant child on the throne. The A Team would think that plan is far fetched and Dayne especially is always inferred as being wise or shrewd. If they are just intent on saving John then why try to kill Ned and his attendants in the first place?

Whatever they were doing there it involved the three of them (of the seven, including their commander) swearing an oath (to which Selmy wasn't an invited party) for some reason that conviced them that Rhaegar's child was more important than the King, Rhaegar or Rhaegar's family. Keeping the truth about a love affair between two dead people seems a little far fetched. And the guy who intervened is the only man to have been on the Eye of the Gods (the island on the lake near harrenhall who's name escapes me right now) where the children of the forest live. Too many coincidences.

And Jon wouldn't be the new king anyway it would be Viserys.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I would go along with Ashara having a child with someone else (another Rhaegar sprog? is that the hint Martin is dropping in the interview linked earlier in the thread?) but that only raises more questions than it answers.

I am being told (mainly by dragonfish) that you know exactly what the oath Dayne is referring to is. You don't, it doesn't say anywhere. And I am familiar with the arguments for why it makes perfect sense for the Kingsguard to be hundreds of miles South of anywhere near the war while their King, his children, his heir and all their families are killed but they stay to guard some woman (who is dying btw) from the North so that they can try to prop up his infant child on the throne. The A Team would think that plan is far fetched and Dayne especially is always inferred as being wise or shrewd. If they are just intent on saving John then why try to kill Ned and his attendants in the first place?

Whatever they were doing there it involved the three of them (of the seven, including their commander) swearing an oath (to which Selmy wasn't an invited party) for some reason that conviced them that Rhaegar's child was more important than the King, Rhaegar or Rhaegar's family. Keeping the truth about a love affair between two dead people seems a little far fetched. And the guy who intervened is the only man to have been on the Eye of the Gods (the island on the lake near harrenhall who's name escapes me right now) where the children of the forest live. Too many coincidences.

I suggest you reread the R+L=J thread (and possibly others that came before it) because most of your questions would be answered in it and you'll see that you're working under some severe misconceptions. It'd be easier for you to just read the arguments than for me to spend an hour hammering them out. Unless Dragonfish wants to do the honors.

And Jon wouldn't be the new king anyway it would be Viserys.

This being one such misconception. Jon was born legitimate. Jon was the king, not Viserys, and that's why the Kingsguard were at the Tower.

[Budj]

To drive the point home....

If Viserys was King as you suspect....then why were none of the KG with him when the most important rule of the KG oath is that one of them must be with the king at all times? One of them was oath/honor bound to go to him if Viserys was actually King...

[Dragonfish]

Unless Dragonfish wants to do the honors.

You rang?

I am being told (mainly by dragonfish) that you know exactly what the oath Dayne is referring to is. You don't, it doesn't say anywhere.

"Ser Willem is a good man and true," said Ser Oswell.

"But not of the Kingsguard," Ser Gerold pointed out. "The Kingsguard does not flee."

"Then or now," said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

"We swore a vow," explained Ser Gerold.

Seems pretty clear to me that they're referring to their vow as Kingsguard. If they weren't, then they really have no basis for vaunting their honor as Kingsguard. Declining to protect the king, whether Aerys or Viserys, in order to fulfill some personal vow to Rhaegar, is hardly exemplary Kingsguard behavior.

And I am familiar with the arguments for why it makes perfect sense for the Kingsguard to be hundreds of miles South of anywhere near the war while their King, his children, his heir and all their families are killed but they stay to guard some woman (who is dying btw) from the North so that they can try to prop up his infant child on the throne. The A Team would think that plan is far fetched and Dayne especially is always inferred as being wise or shrewd.

It doesn't matter if they thought it was a good idea. The Kingsguard do what they're told. And if Rhaegar gave them an order to stay at that tower, they'd do it.

Now, if you're wondering why Rhaegar would do such a thing, the answer is pretty simple: Rhaegar believed his child with Lyanna would be important to the prophecy. Surely that merits some sort of protection detail, no?

If they are just intent on saving John then why try to kill Ned and his attendants in the first place?

Because Ned is Robert's best friend, and Robert had recently approved of the deaths of Rhaegar's other children. The Kingsguard don't necessarily know that Ned actually disagreed with Robert on this. From their perspective, Ned could be just as likely to approve of the children's deaths, and would therefore be a danger to Jon. It would be dangerous to even let him know that there is a child there. Hence the fight.

Plus, even if Ned wasn't a danger, he still would probably have prevented Jon from fulfilling his birthright, which is something that the Kingsguard cannot allow.

And Jon wouldn't be the new king anyway it would be Viserys.

Not if he was born legitimate via marriage, which is the whole point of what we're arguing.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

You rang?

Thanks boo-boo.

[Ygrain]

I would go along with Ashara having a child with someone else (another Rhaegar sprog? is that the hint Martin is dropping in the interview linked earlier in the thread?) but that only raises more questions than it answers.

Brandon is the hottest candidate. Already has a reputation for deflowering noble maidens, and Ned, though he loved him, thinks bitterly how "everything was always for Brandon".

I am being told (mainly by dragonfish) that you know exactly what the oath Dayne is referring to is.

Ah, you can be told by practically every single regular, don't worry :P

- But, as Dragonfish says, the KG emphasize their status and duty as KG in that conversation way too much to prioritize any other oath over their KG vow.

If they are just intent on saving John then why try to kill Ned and his attendants in the first place?

I'd add to this that not only they can't let Ned see Jon, they can't let him see Lyanna, either, so that he wouldn't realize that she has given birth.

And Jon wouldn't be the new king anyway it would be Viserys.

Legitimate via polygamous marriage in the Targ tradition, possibly performed via northern tradition.

[WeStillKnowNothingJonSnow]

i think the mystery of jons lineage will be revealed through melisandre and he will become azer ahai reborn!

[wolfy]

OK I can admit that I had the inheritance wrong between Viserys and Jon but again it raises more questions. If only Jon is legitmate due to the old religion marriage in front of a wierwood, doesn't that make Rhaegar himself illegitimate along with every other Targ who married in a sept before the seven?

Also still doesn't adress the problem of what precisely they planned on doing with a baby with two dead parents? Politically speaking it is of little importance as no one else in the seven kingdoms would wish to see him enthroned. Also they would have to wait for quite a while to try to place Jon on the throne (at least a dozen years), were they simply going to stay at the Tower of Joy for a decade or two killing anyone that came near?

I suppose my theory would be that Rhaegar had become convinced that Jon was more important (as AA reborn) than himself or his family's claim on the throne. That Rhaegar convinced his closest friends of the truth of his position - lets face it if you do beleive in the Long Night then attempting to ensure that AA is reborn is more important to everything on the face of the world, Kingsguard oath or no. Martin seems to place a lot of emphasis on being a good knight and repeatedly demonstrates that keeping vows is not a straightforward matter (Jon with Quorin, Sam with Gilly, Ned and Jon, Brienne, even Jaime Lannister, Barristan Selmy renouncing his vows, I could go on and none of these seem to be tarnished by the loss of their fidelity to their vows*) or even essential to being a good knight. There is a fairly strong (and repeated) inference that in the real world life is not as simple as a vow can make it.

And there is still a missing baby.

Thanks to anyone that took the time to reply to me, even if you all seem to think I am completely mad.

*OK Jaime took quite a bit of flak for being the Kingslayer but even that act is heavily rationalised by Martin.

[Dragonfish]

OK I can admit that I had the inheritance wrong between Viserys and Jon but again it raises more questions. If only Jon is legitmate due to the old religion marriage in front of a wierwood, doesn't that make Rhaegar himself illegitimate along with every other Targ who married in a sept before the seven?

I'm not following you. Why would Rhaegar be considered illegitimate for having married in a sept?

Also still doesn't adress the problem of what precisely they planned on doing with a baby with two dead parents?

This doesn't really matter that much for this argument. Whether they had a plan or not, their duty was to protect the king, and that king was (IMO) Jon.

But just for the sake of speculation, I imagine they either would have hid with one of the remaining Targaryen loyalists, such as the Daynes, and attempted to rally support clandestinely for Jon's cause, or they would have gone into exile like Viserys and attempted to find backers there.

I suppose my theory would be that Rhaegar had become convinced that Jon was more important (as AA reborn) than himself or his family's claim on the throne. That Rhaegar convinced his closest friends of the truth of his position - lets face it if you do beleive in the Long Night then attempting to ensure that AA is reborn is more important to everything on the face of the world, Kingsguard oath or no. Martin seems to place a lot of emphasis on being a good knight and repeatedly demonstrates that keeping vows is not a straightforward matter (Jon with Quorin, Sam with Gilly, Ned and Jon, Brienne, even Jaime Lannister, Barristan Selmy renouncing his vows, I could go on and none of these seem to be tarnished by the loss of their fidelity to their vows*) or even essential to being a good knight. There is a fairly strong (and repeated) inference that in the real world life is not as simple as a vow can make it.

Again, the problem with this is that the Kingsguard have no business highlighting their honor as Kingsguard if they are deliberately shirking their duty to protect the king.

[Lux in Tenebris]

On first re-read. Thought this was an interesting quote in context of this thread.

p 124, US paperback:

"And that is why I read so much, Jon Snow"

The boy absorbed it all in silence. He had the Stark face if not the name: long, solemn, guarded, a face that gave nothing away. Whoever his mother had been, she had left little of herself in her son.

ol george is such a trickster.

[Lux in Tenebris]

OK, a couple of questions about this topic.

If R+L=J and N+AD=? and John Connington took a baby from KL (presumably Aegon) then isn't there a baby missing? Because if AD is SL then she appears to have had a child (both from Barry Selmy's recall and Lemore's stretch marks), plus JS, plus the child rescued from the sacking of KL. Three babies, only two shown up yet, ergo missing baby (or sixteen year old, boy or girl). And don't tell me it wa stillborn or I will tell you that AD fell off a tower.

After R gets sent after the Knoght of the Flowers R+L are discovered somewhere around Harrenhall (wasn't there some mention somewhere of a Stark footman coming across the pair, I have some re-checking to do?) anyway I think that the footman may have been Hodor - Old Nan tells a story where he went South and came back like that, unless I made this up. Anyway my theory runs that the question isn't 'What happened to Hodor?' it is 'Who first warged Hodor?' with the possibilities being R or L (both have been suggested as possible wargs) and after reading this thread I would add Benjen as a possibility.

Also regarding the Tower of Joy. It doesn't say how Howland Reed prevented Ned's death at the hands of Arthur Dayne. It also doesn't actually say that Howland or Ned killed Arthur Dayne. (yes I really want Mance Rayder to be Arthur Dayne)

At the Tower Dayne says that "We swore an oath" but doesn't say which oath, my guess is that the oath Dayne refers to starts, "For the Night is Dark and Full of Terrors".

Just some ideas, let me know how vastly wide of the mark I am.

Isn't the common theory that Ashara fathered a stillborn and flung herself from Starfall in grief? It may not be true, but im not sure you can argue that there is a baby missing in all this.

And also, Jon Connington never smuggled a baby out of KL. He didn't meet up with the child for some time, after the Golden Company.