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Angalin

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I don`t understand why people keep arguing the whole "oath-breaking" aspect of it. One of the major themes of ASOIAF is oath-breaking and people constantly forswearing their vows for whatever reason. I don`t see how it is so hard to believe that 3 KG knights, arguably the 3 closest to Rhaegar, threw their lot in with what he wanted.

To quote the Kingslayer himself:

“How can you still count yourself a knight, when you have forsaken every vow you ever swore?"

Jaime reached for the flagon to refill his cup. "So many vows...they make you swear and swear. Defend the king. Obey the king. Keep his secrets. Do his bidding. Your life for his. But obey your father. Love your sister. Protect the innocent. Defend the weak. Respect the gods. Obey the laws. It's too much. No matter what you do, you're forsaking one vow or the other.”

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Isn't the common theory that Ashara fathered

I think it is widely regarded as a solid fact that she lacked the kit for this. :cool4:

a stillborn and

So Barristan tells us, with no reason to lie.

flung herself from Starfall in grief? It may not be true, but im not sure you can argue that there is a baby missing in all this.

Thats the widely held truth in story. Not sure if its as widely accepted out-story though.

No obvious baby missing, thats for sure. Barristan covered that with his news of a still born baby girl.

And also, Jon Connington never smuggled a baby out of KL. He didn't meet up with the child for some time, after the Golden Company.

Indeed. Years, 4-5+ of them.

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I don`t understand why people keep arguing the whole "oath-breaking" aspect of it. One of the major themes of ASOIAF is oath-breaking and people constantly forswearing their vows for whatever reason. I don`t see how it is so hard to believe that 3 KG knights, arguably the 3 closest to Rhaegar, threw their lot in with what he wanted.

To quote the Kingslayer himself:

Its one thing to break an oath, its another thing entirely to do so while claiming at the exact same time that you are keeping it.

All the more so from the men who are widely held as the paragons of their ideals.

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Its one thing to break an oath, its another thing entirely to do so while claiming at the exact same time that you are keeping it.

All the more so from the men who are widely held as the paragons of their ideals.

Are these claims in Ned`s AGoT chapters? He`s next on my character-arc rereads.

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Its one thing to break an oath, its another thing entirely to do so while claiming at the exact same time that you are keeping it.

All the more so from the men who are widely held as the paragons of their ideals.

I think it`s obvious from the fact that thew show absolutely no remorse in Aerys death shows that whatever "vow" they`re referring to is not "to protect the king". It`s very easy to swear vows and the nature of the vow Ser Gerold mentions could be anything. I know it`s riddled with holes but it`s been shown time and time again that men will pick and choose which vows to obey.

Edit: Apologies for the double post, didn`t think I`d actually posted the one above.

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This is probably a retarded question, but I have not read the books multiple times and don't recall minor hints throughout the story...

Why do many people assume Varys is a Blackfyre ally, who wants the throne to go to Aegon (who people assume is a Blackfyre)?

I am not saying everyone believes this, but I have seen this posted hundreds of time on these forums. I find it much more believable that Aegon is Illyrio's son and Septa Lemore is his late wife (birth scars). Because of their friendship and Aegon's training, I believe Varys would help Illyrio with trying to crown Aegon, regardless of the bloodline.

So basically, I was just curious if there were any hints to say that Illyrio and Varys are Blackfyre allies.

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I think it`s obvious from the fact that thew show absolutely no remorse in Aerys death

[Ned]“When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.”

“Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”

shows that whatever "vow" they`re referring to is not "to protect the king". It`s very easy to swear vows and the nature of the vow Ser Gerold mentions could be anything. I know it`s riddled with holes but it`s been shown time and time again that men will pick and choose which vows to obey.

I think its very clear what they mean. I don't think you've paid close attention if you think they have no remorse for Aerys death and no care for protecting their king.

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This is probably a retarded question, but I have not read the books multiple times and don't recall minor hints throughout the story...

Why do many people assume Varys is a Blackfyre ally, who wants the throne to go to Aegon (who people assume is a Blackfyre)?

I am not saying everyone believes this, but I have seen this posted hundreds of time on these forums. I find it much more believable that Aegon is Illyrio's son and Septa Lemore is his late wife (birth scars). Because of their friendship and Aegon's training, I believe Varys would help Illyrio with trying to crown Aegon, regardless of the bloodline.

So basically, I was just curious if there were any hints to say that Illyrio and Varys are Blackfyre allies.

Have you read Dunk & Egg? The seeds of Blackfyre behind every rock is there. People say Blackfyre often, but really many don't know/care if he is a Blackfyre, just he is not a Red Dragon.

IMO Varys thinks this child was brought up right and will make a good king, not per say a Blackfyre supporter.

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Thanks to anyone that took the time to reply to me, even if you all seem to think I am completely mad.

I too interpreted differently the ToJ exchange once and still stick to my belief that they speak of a different vow, one that has nothing to do with their primary duty to "protect the king". Of course as you realised that's just the belief of the minority in this forum. But keep in mind that we don't know when exactly Jon was born. Because if he was born after the sack then there is no explanation as to why the KG didn't run to Aerys after Rhaegar died. IMO there is no explanation also as to why none, except Jaime, stayed in KL in the first place, so I think there is more to learn yet. It makes more sense for Aerys to want his best men with him with his increasing paranoia.

Not to mention that all information about ToJ derive from a fever dream, Eddard can't even remember clearly his companions' faces and sees them as shadows but remembers the exact quotes of the whole excange?

Remember Sansa and the kiss with Sandor that never happened?

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I too interpreted differently the ToJ exchange once and still stick to my belief that they speak of a different vow, one that has nothing to do with their primary duty to "protect the king". Of course as you realised that's just the belief of the minority in this forum. But keep in mind that we don't know when exactly Jon was born. Because if he was born after the sack then there is no explanation as to why the KG didn't run to Aerys after Rhaegar died. IMO there is no explanation also as to why none, except Jaime, stayed in KL in the first place, so I think there is more to learn yet. It makes more sense for Aerys to want his best men with him with his increasing paranoia.

Not to mention that all information about ToJ derive from a fever dream, Eddard can't even remember clearly his companions' faces and sees them as shadows but remembers the exact quotes of the whole excange?

I`d be inclined to throw my lot in with this. It seems much more likely that they`re referring to a different vow. It`s possible that Martin describes Ned`s companions as "wraiths" purely as a narrative device - Ned now knows that they`re all dead (with the exception of Howland) and sees them only as ghosts.

Or perhaps there is a fire behind Ned. Why I don`t know, it`s the contrast between his companions swords being described as "shadow swords" and Dawn described as being "alive with light". That`s farfetched though, I know.

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Hey, I am a major fan of this theory and Jon Snow himself and I believe that he is not dead since Martain did say Jon would find out who his mother is.

I keep on reading that Jon would be the rightful King at the end of this, but if this Aegon fella, who I think is a fake, turns out to be real won't that make him the rightful King since be would be the eldest?

Unless you guys found something which disproves that

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Yeah Argon would techincally be the legitimate King. Kind of why I find it so strange that you have 3 KG at the ToJ. OK follow the theory they are there to protect 'Jon' (I'm not completely sold on the theory but let's follow the generally accepted canon here). their now king. 3 of the others went with Rhaegar to fight at the Trident. Again fine and understandable let's face it they're protecting the heir to the throne and the king (by fighting his battle). You then have 1 KG (Jamie) to directly protect the King, the/one of the heir's wife, 2 of his kids (including the legitimate 3rd in line for the throne) and I think Dany and Viserys (not sure on that one can't remember exactly where they were. Then you have 3 to guard the heirs mistress/2nd wife (i see no evidence but wishful thinking to say there was a polygomous marriage) and the (possible) 4th in line with the throne? Doesn't it seem a bit heavily sided to protect a couple of the royal family? OK arguably you could say they're more exposed in the ToJ than KL but you could send other guards.

My theory is more they were there as a kind of insurance that Rhaegar would head off to the Trident and stay loyal. With Aerys saying they should kill both L and the kid should he turn/lost the battle. We know Aerys was paranoid about R's loyalty and that the KG would do anything the King said, also that Aerys wasn't above a bit of pointless destruction when all is lost.

If not you have to accept all 3 were off doing something else at the time of the Trident/sacking of KL or that Aerys ordered them to be at the ToJ. I can buy into them being off on some other mission Rhaegar get's killed at the Trident, Aerys & Aegon in KL so then they head to ToJ to protect the new king. Though that does mean they'd have had to know the kid was there and Aerys considered whatever else they were off doing to be more important than protecting him. Doubtful. I also doubt he ordered them there. Equally I don't think they would have followed Rhaegar's orders to stay there rather than KL. After all their first duty is to protect the king so even if Rhaegar had asked this when he rode this it would controvene their sworn duty.

No it would have to have been Aeyrs who ordered them there and I can only conclude it was to ensure Rhaegar didn't get to the Trident and say 'excuse me chaps, if you accept me as King we can all end this peacefully and just bump off my Dad.' Lyanna could then tell Big Bob 'Sorry you're a nice guy but it's not you it's me' and it all ends peacefully.

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I don't get the whole 3 KG at the ToJ thing either, especially since one of them was Rhaegars best friend. Jon having more protection then the King himself astounds me. Unless Rhaegar had found some way to annul his marriage to Elia thereby legitamising Jon as true heir nothing because nothing else makes sense.

Rhaegar died before Elia and his kids so he couldn't have ordered the 3 KG to the ToJ, but the logical step would be to head to KL to protect Aegon, but no, they were at the ToJ, and it make matters more confusing it seems as if they were at the ToJ the whole time. Only logical conclusion is that Jon was the heir apparent, not Aegon.

If this is true and if YG is the real Aegon prepare for a shitstorm.

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And one of the 3 kingsguard at the tower of joy was Gerold Hightower. Gerold Hightower the lord commander of the kingsguard at this time. The same Gerold hightower who told Jaime not to judge king Aerys when he burned people but to do his duty.

I could see another vow than the preliminary vow to ptotect the king with Dayne and Whent, but for sure not with Hightower. Therefore I'm sure it is the vow to protect the king. And it was Gerold Hightower who referred to the vow. This makes it very clear which vow is meant.

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I don't get the whole 3 KG at the ToJ thing either, especially since one of them was Rhaegars best friend. Jon having more protection then the King himself astounds me. Unless Rhaegar had found some way to annul his marriage to Elia thereby legitamising Jon as true heir nothing because nothing else makes sense.

Rhaegar died before Elia and his kids so he couldn't have ordered the 3 KG to the ToJ, but the logical step would be to head to KL to protect Aegon, but no, they were at the ToJ, and it make matters more confusing it seems as if they were at the ToJ the whole time. Only logical conclusion is that Jon was the heir apparent, not Aegon.

If this is true and if YG is the real Aegon prepare for a shitstorm.

Welcome to the forums, you migth find lots of those answers digging on the older R+L=J v.

Just to not make a huge answer:

- The king, Elia, Rhaenys and Aegon are protected by one KG (Jaime), inside the Red Keep and with the remmants of Aerys army that stayed at KL...they "were" safe (they had no way to know about Jaime betrayal). On the other side the 3 KG at ToJ are the only ones defending Lyanna and the baby.

- Targs have a history of polygamous marriages, it's a theory that Rhaegar reinstalled that tradition to marry Lyanna, making Jon a true born.

- The 3 KG have no way of knowing about Varys "magical baby switch", to them Aegon brains are painting a wall in KL...the "logical" step for at least one of them would had been going to Dragonstone to protect Viserys (now the King)...unless of course Jon is a true born and with Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon dead, becomes the new king.

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Jaime was supposed to be protecting Rhaegar's other progeny / Aerys.

When Ned went to the ToJ King's Landing had already been sacked.

I'm guessing there were three with Jon because Rhaegar was convinced he was tptwp (don't need to be a king to be a prince) and / or they were in a tower in the middle of no where and any scum bag that happened to walk by could do bad things to a sick woman and a new born child.

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Welcome to the forums, you migth find lots of those answers digging on the older R+L=J v.

Just to not make a huge answer:

- The king, Elia, Rhaenys and Aegon are protected by one KG (Jaime), inside the Red Keep and with the remmants of Aerys army that stayed at KL...they "were" safe (they had no way to know about Jaime betrayal). On the other side the 3 KG at ToJ are the only ones defending Lyanna and the baby.

- Targs have a history of polygamous marriages, it's a theory that Rhaegar reinstalled that tradition to marry Lyanna, making Jon a true born.

- The 3 KG have no way of knowing about Varys "magical baby switch", to them Aegon brains are painting a wall in KL...the "logical" step for at least one of them would had been going to Dragonstone to protect Viserys (now the King)...unless of course Jon is a true born and with Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon dead, becomes the new king.

Ah, ok thanks, that makes a lot of sense.

We just have to wait and see what the deal is with this Aegon guy then, things are going to get very interesting I feel. To be honest. I think Aegon will die, but that's for another thread.

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This is probably a retarded question, but I have not read the books multiple times and don't recall minor hints throughout the story...

Why do many people assume Varys is a Blackfyre ally, who wants the throne to go to Aegon (who people assume is a Blackfyre)?

I am not saying everyone believes this, but I have seen this posted hundreds of time on these forums. I find it much more believable that Aegon is Illyrio's son and Septa Lemore is his late wife (birth scars). Because of their friendship and Aegon's training, I believe Varys would help Illyrio with trying to crown Aegon, regardless of the bloodline.

So basically, I was just curious if there were any hints to say that Illyrio and Varys are Blackfyre allies.

Most proponents of the Blackfyre theory agree that Illyrio and Serra are Aegon's parents. They just think that Serra was a Blackfyre who desired to see her family sit the throne again, and when she died, Illryio decided to fulfill that desire through their son. Varys being a Blackfyre ally is just a natural extension of this theory (though it should be noted that the degree of his loyalty specifically to the Blackfyre line is up for debate).

There is a nifty piece of foreshadowing for this theory in AFFC, when Septon Meribald tells the story of a black iron dragon sign being thrown into the river and later washing ashore "red with rust"; in other words, an exiled Blackfyre returning in the guise of a Targaryen.

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But keep in mind that we don't know when exactly Jon was born. Because if he was born after the sack then there is no explanation as to why the KG didn't run to Aerys after Rhaegar died.

Sure there is. They may simply have not found out about it all until after the Sack. Moreover, they may have felt that it wasn't incumbent upon them to return once Rhaegar died, because the king still had Kingsguard protection with him.

IMO there is no explanation also as to why none, except Jaime, stayed in KL in the first place,

This is inaccurate. There were around four Kingsguard in King's Landing at various points, and the three who went to the Trident were defending King's Landing, albeit indirectly.

My theory is more they were there as a kind of insurance that Rhaegar would head off to the Trident and stay loyal. With Aerys saying they should kill both L and the kid should he turn/lost the battle. We know Aerys was paranoid about R's loyalty and that the KG would do anything the King said, also that Aerys wasn't above a bit of pointless destruction when all is lost.

Why would Aerys use Rhaegar's best friend for this purpose? That's a bit counter-intuitive, don't you think?

Equally I don't think they would have followed Rhaegar's orders to stay there rather than KL.

Actually, they would follow Rhaegar's orders, according to George.

After all their first duty is to protect the king so even if Rhaegar had asked this when he rode this it would controvene their sworn duty.

This is also inaccurate. It was never the case that all Kingsguard have to be with the king at all times. They are free to be dispatched elsewhere, as long as at least one of them is with the king.

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