Groat Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 If you look at the passage where Varys tells Tyrion the "answer," he specifically refers to the unpleasantness of Ned's execution:"Who truly killed Eddark Stark, do you think? Joffrey, who gave the command? Ser Ilyn Payne who swung the sword? Or...another?"In the full passage, Varys is trying to get Tyrion to realize that those who convince others what to believe is where the power truly resides. And in this case, it's a tip-off to LF, who planted the idea in Joffrey to kill Ned, assuredly not for monetary gain, but mostly likely by appealing to Joff's pride or something. From there, Payne and Slynt believed Joff's power overrode Cersei's and the whole thing came crashing down.I think Varys is saying that the person who knows what people believe- and further- knows how to influence a person's beliefs, is he who wields the power. :agree:I was going to say the answer to the riddle is that power resides with the people, with the masses, but you articulated that idea more thoroughly than I could.Something I missed, how is it revealed that it's LF who influences Joff to behead the Ned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spotted Cat Posted November 7, 2012 Author Share Posted November 7, 2012 Who would varys the spider kill?no one knows who his real lord is,( targs, lannisters or baratheons) , we dont know about his religious views, and gold... ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterbumps! Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 :agree:I was going to say the answer to the riddle is that power resides with the people, with the masses, but you articualted that idea more thoroughly than I could.Something I missed, how is it revealed that it's LF who influences Joff to behead the Ned.It's not obvious at all, but kind of cloaked in doublespeak. There are I think 3-4 places where it is intimated that LF is behind that, this being one of them. Another is at the end of one of Tyrion's aCoK chapters where he goes to Chataya's the first time and talks with Varys. There's a couple of others that I need to look up to give the comprehensive picture when I have more time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keirut Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 I'd choose the King.He IS my lawful ruler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ab aeterno Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 It's not obvious at all, but kind of cloaked in doublespeak. There are I think 3-4 places where it is intimated that LF is behind that, this being one of them. Another is at the end of one of Tyrion's aCoK chapters where he goes to Chataya's the first time and talks with Varys. There's a couple of others that I need to look up to give the comprehensive picture when I have more time.For what it's worth I think it also makes sense in that LF is the one who gains the most from this, because presumably he doesn't want Cat to know that he betrayed Ned and I think he still wants to get back at Ned for Brandon and for Ned marrying Cat. Varys certainly doesn't want it because it's too soon for him and Cersei doesn't want it because it would lead to war between them and the Starks. LF is the only person who benefits from both killing Ned and starting a war between the Starks and Lannisters at this point, and it's something that he seems to have been working on for some time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ab aeterno Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 I'd choose the King.He IS my lawful rulerKing Stannis is always glad to have the service of those who follow the law and their rightful king. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrcella Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 This is where I think the source of Tywin's power lies.Everyone else.Tywin destroying the two rebel houses Reyne and some other foolish family wasn't about vengeance; it was about sending a message. Tywin-propaganda is all over the Seven Kingdoms, and the Lannister theme song is sung as often as The Bear and the Mainden Fair. There are many sayings about House Lannister (Tywin shits gold; a Lannister always pays his debts), as the smallfolk and the nobility are wont of reminding one another.As readers we can judge his battle commanding skills, and those don't seem to be great at all. His fleet was burnt in the Greyjoy rebellion, and he was crushed by a 16-year-old boy about 5 times in battle. The only significant victories he had were the Battle of Blackwater (and that would have failed if not for Tyrion's wildfire nuke) and the Sack of King's Landing, by use of treachery. Other than being rich, there seems to have been no factor to his reputation other than how he crushed the rebels (which was easy enough with the rest of his bannermen at his back), and the propaganda that arose from that.Anyway, this propaganda is so strong even Robert Baratheon fears slighting him. Everyone fears the mighty Tywin. He pretends to be a completely cold man, to retain that reputation, but through Cersei we know this is only a mask.Everyone everywhere needs to do exactly as he says. And he's always been a cunt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ab aeterno Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 This is where I think the source of Tywin's power lies.Everyone else.Tywin destroying the two rebel houses Reyne and some other foolish family wasn't about vengeance; it was about sending a message. Tywin-propaganda is all over the Seven Kingdoms, and the Lannister theme song is sung as often as The Bear and the Mainden Fair. There are many sayings about House Lannister (Tywin shits gold; a Lannister always pays his debts), as the smallfolk and the nobility are wont of reminding one another.As readers we can judge his battle commanding skills, and those don't seem to be great at all. His fleet was burnt in the Greyjoy rebellion, and he was crushed by a 16-year-old boy about 5 times in battle. The only significant victories he had were the Battle of Blackwater (and that would have failed if not for Tyrion's wildfire nuke) and the Sack of King's Landing, by use of treachery. Other than being rich, there seems to have been no factor to his reputation other than how he crushed the rebels (which was easy enough with the rest of his bannermen at his back), and the propaganda that arose from that.Anyway, this propaganda is so strong even Robert Baratheon fears slighting him. Everyone fears the mighty Tywin. He pretends to be a completely cold man, to retain that reputation, but through Cersei we know this is only a mask.Everyone everywhere needs to do exactly as he says. And he's always been a cunt.I mostly agree though I wouldn't say that Robert fears slighting him per se, more than Robert respects his power and wouldn't want to antagonize him needlessly.Another example is Stannis who, after being counseled to leave Storm's End un-taken and march on KL, tells Davos that he must take Storm's End because if he doesn't people will say that he was defeated. People loved Robert and they loved Renly but they only follow Stannis because they fear him, so he must appear a man to be feared. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Angels' Prophet Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 I think it all depends on the sellsword. Is he a religous man? Is he loyal to the crown? Does he desire money? Is he fast on his feet? Is he used to running from the law? It all depends on him. This is a riddle with too many answers. ( Yay for quoting!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keirut Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 King Stannis is always glad to have the service of those who follow the law and their rightful king.Good....But the rightful king is a Targaryen...Just sayin' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ab aeterno Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 Good....But the rightful king is a Targaryen...Just sayin'They will bend the knee or be destroyed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldplums8 Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 Who would varys the spider kill?no one knows who his real lord is,( targs, lannisters or baratheons) , we dont know about his religious views, and gold... ???Knowing Varys, he'd probably manipulate the three powerful men to finish each other off and leave him with the gold, the crown, and spiritual authority.Also, I know the riddle's oversimplified and all, but how would other factors affect the sellsword? The setup reminds me of the casus belli of the Trojan War: Paris is a 17-year-old boy, Hera offers power, Athena offers knowledge, and Aphrodite offers the most derirable woman in the world. He takes Aphrodite's offer, because boobs.So like, what about honor, love, and stuff? If the sellsword's hero equivalent of Jaime's Ser Arthur Dayne told him to kill? Or his lover? Or if each option was weighted with consequences as well as carrots? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam H Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 One of the main things I get from this story is that Varys would want to control those three main roles in order to be the power-monger he wants to be – the King, the rich (Ilyrio, Lannisters, LF?), and the Church. So IMO it foreshadows Varys possible involvement with the new High Sparrow, and brings up interesting possibilities regarding the other religions – perhaps Varys has some influence with the followers of R’hllor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silent Wolf Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 The sellsword should ask: "Why should i kill them? Why do they desrve death?"Why should the sellsword show blind obedience to anyone of the three man? He should think first!And there is still the option to kill all three of them or no one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ab aeterno Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 The sellsword should ask: "Why should i kill them? Why do they desrve death?"Why should the sellsword show blind obedience to anyone of the three man? He should think first!And there is still the option to kill all three of them or no one.I think that is part of Varys' point. The sellsword doesn't know that he holds the power because he believes one of the three to be the most powerful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spotted Cat Posted November 8, 2012 Author Share Posted November 8, 2012 The sellsword should ask: "Why should i kill them? Why do they desrve death?"Why should the sellsword show blind obedience to anyone of the three man? He should think first!And there is still the option to kill all three of them or no one.i dont think sellswords usually ask that type of questions People loved Robert and they loved Renly but they only follow Stannis because they fear him, so he must appear a man to be feared.not many of them follow stannis. Even though he is the rightful rulerDoesn't loyalty finally comes down to greed. Why is any one loyal to any lord? hopes of future riches, lands or glory, ambition...as Buddhism teach us. all sins start with greed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ab aeterno Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 not many of them follow stannis. Even though he is the rightful rulerDoesn't loyalty finally comes down to greed. Why is any one loyal to any lord? hopes of future riches, lands or glory, ambition...as Buddhism teach us. all sins start with greed.My quote was what Stannis explains to Davos, it's just an example of different reasons that the lords and kings are followed. Robert because he is loved, Stannis because he is feared. Stannis is more feared than Renly even when Renly has all the men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spotted Cat Posted November 8, 2012 Author Share Posted November 8, 2012 why does davos follow stannis?i really dont know if stannis payed davos for the onions but after that whole davos loyalty was bought. lordships, knighthood, ships for him and son etc etcdavos himself says that all he has he owes to stannis.i really dont see a person in the book who is loyal entirely selflessly. if you do, please enlighten me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ab aeterno Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 why does davos follow stannis?i really dont know if stannis payed davos for the onions but after that whole davos loyalty was bought. lordships, knighthood, ships for him and son etc etcdavos himself says that all he has he owes to stannis.i really dont see a person in the book who is loyal entirely selflessly.if you do, please enlighten me.I suppose that you could make the case that Ned is selflessly loyal because he sees it as his duty. Cat too, and perhaps Barristan. The Reeds, perhaps?Personally I would argue that it is impossible for anyone to act selflessly, it defies the causes of human action.I agree, Davos follows Stannis because Davos views Stannis as being just, and is grateful to Stannis for making him a knight and giving his sons a better future.Stannis' point though is that while Robert could keep everyone happy and was a popular leader, Stannis can only maintain his leadership because people fear what will happen if they stop supporting him. It seems to work. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterbumps! Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 why does davos follow stannis?i really dont know if stannis payed davos for the onions but after that whole davos loyalty was bought. lordships, knighthood, ships for him and son etc etcdavos himself says that all he has he owes to stannis.i really dont see a person in the book who is loyal entirely selflessly.if you do, please enlighten me.Davos would follow Stannis even if he hadn't been rewarded with those things. He hasn't been bought. It's Stannis' respect and his respect for Stannis that motivates him.But I would also argue that the Northmen marching under Stannis toward Winterfell are in this for reasonably altruistic reasons of loyalty. Not to Stannis, but rather to the Starks-- they're doing this to get the Ned's girl back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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