Rhaegar Targaryen

[Newstar]

Arianne supposedly thinks in the TWOW sample chapter that many thought Rhaegar was "beautiful." "Beautiful" to me when used to describe a man suggests refined, delicate good looks.

That doesn't mean looking like a woman. Rhaegar was supposed to be attractive to women, you know.

So? A lot of teen heartthrobs have delicate or even "feminine" features: Jared Leto (back in the day), Leonardo Dicaprio (back in the day), Zac Efron, etc. etc. Even now, Jared Leto looks like a credible woman in drag--a hard thing to pull off without naturally "feminine" features--and he was quite the heartthrob back in the 1990s. I would call someone like Jared Leto beautiful (in his youth, at least), whereas with a more typically "handsome" actor--Chris Hemsworth, say--he would be handsome, but not beautiful. I would imagine Rhaegar to look more like someone like Jared Leto than Chris Hemsworth.

[Annara Snow]

There's a difference between men with 'pretty' features like Jared Leto, Zac Afron, Leo Di Caprio, and men who actually look androgynous like Andrej Pejic.

[Deadwood]

It's all subjective. Hemsworth isn't masculine in my view, he has a pretty-boy face, he'd fit a Targaryan for me.

[Metopheles]

I think Jared Leto at the moment is perfect. At the Oscars I thought the whole time about what a good choice he would be.

As long as the Rhaegar actor does not have a monster jaw, I'm content.

prominent jaw=STARK

Oh, and while we are at it:

Use David Bowie as Aerys or any other Targaryen.

[Annara Snow]

It's all subjective. Hemsworth isn't masculine in my view, he has a pretty-boy face, he'd fit a Targaryan for me.

I do think that Hemsworth looks masculine, but I wouldn't describe him as "otherworldly beautiful".

But generally, I don't think that "beautiful" means "androgynous" or "effeminate", and nobody ever said Rhaegar looked like a woman, and you know that someone sure would have mentioned it if he did look androgynous.

For instance, Alain Delon was beautiful, so was another French actor, Louis Jourdan; Jonathan Rhys Meyers, Rufus Sewell, young Jude Law could be called beautiful, the guy who played Rakharo could be called beautiful, this guy whose picture was posted in this thread earlier looks beautiful:

http://www.film.ru/img/persons/vasiliy_stepanov_kammerer.jpg

But I don't think any of them look effeminate.

[Metopheles]

If we go by beauty ... well then actually androgynous is most of the time the most beautiful..or so says mathematics.

ancient greek and roman marble statues of men often look quite androgynous, but not feminine.

And, the most important thing: Golden Ratio. Everything must be in the golden ratio.

Practically the vitruvian man.

But this is of course only the scientific standard. Personal preference plays no role in that. Only science and nature.

[Deadwood]

Symmetry comes up as a universal trait to beauty. Never seen androgyny mentioned.

I think a lot of Greek statues look quite masculine, with heavy brows and large noses.

[Metopheles]

Symmetry comes up as a universal trait to beauty. Never seen androgyny mentioned.

I think a lot of Greek statues look quite masculine, with heavy brows and large noses.

perhaps those of Socrates and the old men, but have you seen statues of Nero or Ocatavian?

Or go some thousand years back to Akhenaten. You cannot tell apart him from Nefertiti.

Or Renaissance paintings/statues. John the Baptist looks like a woman.

Mary Magdalene is apparently just one of the male followers of Jesus in Da Vinci's last supper.

some depicted people have special features like large ears or a prominent beard, but if there weren't such popular features, then the depicted person was made as androgynous as possible. Especially when it cam to the jaw line. Romans and Greeks hated a prominent jaw. It was considered barbarian. That's why they cheated a little. Somehow ancient photoshop.

But the motives of course change from culture to culture. Some made the husband and wife look alike, to show that they belong together.

But yeah, beauty can be calculated. And early high cultures knew the equation and formulas for it.

1: 1.618.

[Deadwood]

I've read about the golden ratio before. Checking wiki it seems that stuff around it being associated with perceived beauty has been attempted.

Have you a link to something that discusses androgyny and perception of beauty?

[Metopheles]

I've read about the golden ratio before. Checking wiki it seems that stuff around it being associated with perceived beauty has been attempted.

Have you a link to something that discusses androgyny and perception of beauty?

The only link I have is a overall interest in that matter.

And androgyny being the paramount of beauty...just look around you. The big fashion labels do everything to achieve exactly that.

young David Bowie, Tilda Swinton, Baptiste Giabiconi, some photographs of Claudia Schiffer,...

look at Lagerfeld stuff and Joop.

just check wikipedia for androgyny in art or something.

But I am not saying that there is a direct link between androgyny and golden ratio..kinda. I mean there is, but not my point.

Golden Ratio=Beauty is a fact. If you go by common perception and if you cast away all the things you know about a person. And take away hair colour, eye colour. There are tons of studies that show that when humans imagine the perfect partner, it is all quite near the golden ratio, in terms of body proportions. Especially facial ones.

I think that the Targaryens are exactly that picture book example.

But then there are of course other factors too. Some people want the exact opposite of that, and consider that beautiful.

If you take a step down onto another level that does not involve relations between humans, for example interior decor, architecture, gardening, etc. Then you will always go with the golden ratio. Looking that your flowers have the right shape in their leaves and blossoms, that the apples and oranges have the right shape..That your doors are not three meters wide and 1 meter tall, but in perfect proportion etc.

But yeah. Remember what Santayana said: It is better to feel beauty than to understand how we come to feel it.

[The Dragon King]

If we go by beauty ... well then actually androgynous is most of the time the most beautiful..or so says mathematics.

ancient greek and roman marble statues of men often look quite androgynous, but not feminine.

And, the most important thing: Golden Ratio. Everything must be in the golden ratio.

Practically the vitruvian man.

But this is of course only the scientific standard. Personal preference plays no role in that. Only science and nature.

Just because attractive males and females often share similar ratios doesn't mean that there aren't significant and easily discernible differences between the two.

Women aren't attracted to men who look like they could women, in fact women often like men who stand out in ways which express maleness, think facial hair, square jaw, deep voice, muscular body, etc. Men like curvy and feminine women.

Rhaegar wouldn't look androgynous, just an exceptionally good looking male.

[Metopheles]

Just because attractive males and females often share similar ratios doesn't mean that there aren't significant and easily discernible differences between the two.

Women aren't attracted to men who look like they could women, in fact women often like men who stand out in ways which express maleness, think facial hair, square jaw, deep voice, muscular body, etc. Men like curvy and feminine women.

Rhaegar wouldn't look androgynous, just an exceptionally good looking male.

you don't really understand what I meant.

And androgynous is not necessarily feminine.

You should inform yourself about Golden Ratio. It is pretty interesting. I say this, because it is hard to explain it. Just read it on a wiki, you will understand it and see that it has nothing to do with what you stated, and actually is in some ways the ideals you proposed, like muscular body.

Voice has absolutely nothing to do with any of it. The only remote thing here is a prominent Adam's Apple, but that does not say much either in relation to having a deep voice.

And voice plays no role in terms of androgyny or golden ratio...well golden ratio perhaps, but that one is just inevitable, as he is everywhere.

[The Dragon King]

you don't really understand what I meant.

And androgynous is not necessarily feminine.

You should inform yourself about Golden Ratio. It is pretty interesting. I say this, because it is hard to explain it. Just read it on a wiki, you will understand it and see that it has nothing to do with what you stated, and actually is in some ways the ideals you proposed, like muscular body.

Voice has absolutely nothing to do with any of it. The only remote thing here is a prominent Adam's Apple, but that does not say much either in relation to having a deep voice.

And voice plays no role in terms of androgyny or golden ratio...well golden ratio perhaps, but that one is just inevitable, as he is everywhere.

It possible you didn't explain it very well. I'm actually quite familiar with that ratio and facial geometry. Voice most definitely plays a part in attraction, women aren't attracted to men who have a voice like women.

As far as the body goes, men and women have different proportions, women like men with male proportions. Androgyny is not attractive to men or women, you don't see guys putting up pin-ups of Tilda Swanson but you do see them lusting after Katy Perry, who is very feminine in her build.

The fashion industry likes them because their faces can more easily be altered to achieve the particular look they're going for, not because they're inherently more attractive.

[Metopheles]

It possible you didn't explain it very well. I'm actually quite familiar with that ratio and facial geometry. Voice most definitely plays a part in attraction, women aren't attracted to men who have a voice like women.

As far as the body goes, men and women have different proportions, women like men with male proportions. Androgyny is not attractive to men or women, you don't see guys putting up pin-ups of Tilda Swanson but you do see them lusting after Katy Perry, who is very feminine in her build.

The fashion industry likes them because their faces can more easily be altered to achieve the particular look they're going for, not because they're inherently more attractive.

I wasn't talking about attraction, I was talking about beauty on the scientific and biologic basis. Nothing more.

There are plenty of people who would have a pin up of Tilda Swinton.

There are thousands of women lusting after young Bowie.

Millions were and are attracted to Grace Jones. A woman with a thin muscular body with slightly broad shoulders and a deep voice.

I know a lot of young women with deep voices that are not at all masculine because of that.

There are thousands being attracted to underwear models like Taylor Lautner.

You go to the subject from a different angle than I am. And you obviously missed the point of the conversation that was going on.

Your last point made no sense.

[The Dragon King]

I wasn't talking about attraction, I was talking about beauty on the scientific and biologic basis. Nothing more.

There are plenty of people who would have a pin up of Tilda Swinton.

There are thousands of women lusting after young Bowie.

Millions were and are attracted to Grace Jones. A woman with a thin muscular body with slightly broad shoulders and a deep voice.

I know a lot of young women with deep voices that are not at all masculine because of that.

There are thousands being attracted to underwear models like Taylor Lautner.

You go to the subject from a different angle than I am. And you obviously missed the point of the conversation that was going on.

Your last point made no sense.

"Scientific attraction", in and of itself, is actually irrelevant to the topic at hand, it's about casting an actor to play Rhaegar based on his description and how people reacted to him.

The problem with the examples you chose is that they're celebrities, I once had a female swooning because I told her I was the right Guard for the New England Patriots, that was pretty funny.

Plenty of straight males in ASOIAF were impressed by how handsome Rhaegar was.

Strictly from a dramatic perspective, the casting choice has to be manly enough for the audience to take him seriously as someone who could actually go toe to toe with Robert Baratheon.

Also, you might want to be a bit less combative in your posts, if doesn't make your point and more or less valid.

Finally, I have NEVER seen ANY male, straight or otherwise, praise Tilda Swanson's looks, not a single one, I do see PLENTY of males who go nuts over Christina Hendricks womanly curves.

[mr.mop]

Men can definitely be "pretty" and have it be a good look. Women can definitely be "handsome" an have it be a good look. Not sure why this is debatable.

Also not sure the actual looks matter for Rhaegar, it's all about presence.

Not sure any of this matters, though, as Rhaegar will probably get exactly 0 minutes of screen time.

[Metopheles]

Finally, I have NEVER seen ANY male, straight or otherwise, praise Tilda Swanson's looks, not a single one, I do see PLENTY of males who go nuts over Christina Hendricks womanly curves.

1. you have a wrong perception about Rhaegar's description.

2. same can be said about the other things you said.

3. You have just found your patient zero I guess. I think that Tilda Swinton is beyond beautiful. You really should celebrate.

4. Interesting, and I'm not having a laugh, but interesting that you say you can pass as right guard of the patriots, yet chose Viserys as your avatar. All that macho talk and what is considered beautiful and male and manly, yet you chose one of the most feminine men in the series.

I really don't mock you here, and I am not combative, I just live to discuss and I hate it if my points are missed. And don't take stuff on the internet too personal. ;)

[Deadwood]

Androgyny being the paramount of beauty looks like an opinion. The only factual based evidence I can find that comes from data is symmetry and the average.

A lot of people find androgynous beings attractive, but then a lot of people don't.

When it comes to numbers, looks like symmetry/average are universal, anything else is personal predilection.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beauty#Human_beauty

"A strong indicator of physical beauty is "averageness", or "koinophilia". When images of human faces are averaged together to form a composite image, they become progressively closer to the "ideal" image and are perceived as more attractive. This was first noticed in 1883, when Francis Galton, cousin of Charles Darwin, overlaid photographic composite images of the faces of vegetarians and criminals to see if there was a typical facial appearance for each. When doing this, he noticed that the composite images were more attractive compared to any of the individual images.
Fresco of a Roman woman from Pompeii, c. 50 AD

Researchers have replicated the result under more controlled conditions and found that the computer generated, mathematical average of a series of faces is rated more favourably than individual faces. Evolutionarily, it makes logical sense that sexual creatures should be attracted to mates who possess predominantly common or average features."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_attractiveness#Sexual_dimorphism

"Studies have shown that ovulating heterosexual women prefer faces with masculine traits associated with increased exposure to testosterone during key developmental stages, such as a broad forehead, relatively longer lower face, prominent chin and brow, chiselled jaw and defined cheekbones."

[Metopheles]

Androgyny being the paramount of beauty looks like an opinion. The only factual based evidence I can find that comes from data is symmetry and the average.

A lot of people find androgynous beings attractive, but then a lot of people don't.

When it comes to numbers, looks like symmetry/average are universal, anything else is personal predilection.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beauty#Human_beauty

"A strong indicator of physical beauty is "averageness", or "koinophilia". When images of human faces are averaged together to form a composite image, they become progressively closer to the "ideal" image and are perceived as more attractive. This was first noticed in 1883, when Francis Galton, cousin of Charles Darwin, overlaid photographic composite images of the faces of vegetarians and criminals to see if there was a typical facial appearance for each. When doing this, he noticed that the composite images were more attractive compared to any of the individual images.

Fresco of a Roman woman from Pompeii, c. 50 AD

Researchers have replicated the result under more controlled conditions and found that the computer generated, mathematical average of a series of faces is rated more favourably than individual faces. Evolutionarily, it makes logical sense that sexual creatures should be attracted to mates who possess predominantly common or average features."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_attractiveness#Sexual_dimorphism

"Studies have shown that ovulating heterosexual women prefer faces with masculine traits associated with increased exposure to testosterone during key developmental stages, such as a broad forehead, relatively longer lower face, prominent chin and brow, chiselled jaw and defined cheekbones."

nice research.

the part about vegetarians being compared with criminals is pure gold.

Still...I wonder why Danny Trejo is not on every cover of women's magazines, but guys like from one direction and Justin Bieber are the persons of general attraction of young females.

[Deadwood]

Indeed, veggies and crims, makes the juxtaposition interesting.