The Dagger hired to kill Bran

[Ürglõvi]

Well he could have used his teleporter.

Is that how the ravens always get to the right place so quickly? :D

[dupontmorand]

To me, the dagger only made sense as something meant to be left behind, in order to direct the blame on someone, ie the dagger's owner, the way Littlefinger does it when he meets Cat.

Why would Joffrey get Robert's precious dagger and give it to the assassin ?

Just occured to me: so that his father would know who was responsible... ?

[king in the north portland]

As far as LF's motives, many of his moves are made to confuse or misdirect. He says as much to Sansa. He also said that he thrives off of chaos. I think Jeoff hired the assassin and provided the knife from Robert's stores knowing that the king would never miss it. Little Finger just took advantage of a situation that worked for him.

[Gargarax]

One thing that's always puzzled me about the scene where LF tell's Cat that the dagger is Tyrion's, is Varys' presence, and subsequently, his silence. We are introduced to Varys a few paragraphs before the telling, and LF claims Varys knows about most things that happen in KL before they happen, so it's pretty safe to assume that he knows who the dagger currently belonged to (Robert). Later, in Arya's POV, we hear Varys tell Illyrio that the lion is at the wolf's throat (or something like that), to which Illyrio counters "delay." So if Varys and Illyrio don't want the Starks and the Lannisters at war just yet, why does Varys just stand there and let LF tell a blatant lie!?

I'm pretty positive Varys and LF are working against each other, but this scene almost seems to point to the contrary. Anyone got any insight?

Thanks for pointing this out, it struck me as odd as well. However, it seems part of Varys' role at court to never correct anyone, but to make notice of such mistakes. There is nothing to be won of telling Catelyn here, the information seems much more valuable as a secret. Varys has survived so long because he never contradicted anyone openly. What I find odd, though, is that LF seems at ease telling the lie with Varys present. Does LF know that bringing chaos to Westeros is their common goal? Why would LF think that Varys is okay with Tyron being blamed for Bran's murder? Why is he sure that Varys won't let Catelyn or Ned know later on?

So while Varys' reaction can be explained, LF's lie in Varys' presence opens up a lot of questions.

[allangam]

I would also like to point out, in support of Joffrey theory, is what the Assassin says to Catelyn. He says to her: "It's a mercy. He's already dead." So his explanation is consistent with the flashbacks that we're shown from Tyrion's point of view. And... we might deduce that whoever hired the killer must have told him "mercy" was the reason. Poster Syrio.Forel has best explanation above, and this little fact just further cements the theory. I agree too that it's a nice Martin-esque twist to tie this loose end to Joffrey. Case closed as far as I am concerned. However, we cannot be 100% certain. Would it not also be very Martin-esque to have Cersei later reveal she was lying to Tyrion about her memories... anything is possible and Martin is so often vague for secret reasons, it seems.

[x3kat88]

ok, I read half of the post but before I go to college, I need to ask a question or something.

Does LF and Varys work together in their conspiracy or Varys just use LF for the moment being?

I also believe that LF made Cat's sister crazy from the beginning. As Lisa fell in love with him and believed everything LF told her.

LF could manage to make her crazy in court by lying and persuading her to do the things she did.

[The Fat Huntsmen]

About Varys not speaking up. LF tells Ned he has Varys "by the balls" If Varys went against LF. Than LF would reveal how Vary's Little Birds work. (I believe LF knew about the passages in the Red Keep and how Varys used them and he used this knowledge to keep Varys silent about his plans) I don't have the book on me but it is AGOT when LF is talking to Ned.

[susmel]

What I find odd, though, is that LF seems at ease telling the lie with Varys present. Does LF know that bringing chaos to Westeros is their common goal? Why would LF think that Varys is okay with Tyron being blamed for Bran's murder? Why is he sure that Varys won't let Catelyn or Ned know later on?

Keep in mind that, as far as I can remember, LF only tells the "lie" about the owner of the dagger once Varys has already admitted he has no idea who it belonged to. Yes, maybe Varys is lying, but in that case he cannot really tell "well, I lied, it actually belongs to Robert" because Ned would not like that at all. He might also be lying because he knows that it used to belong to LF, but not who is his current owner, in that case the lie suits LF perfectly. Last case, he has actually no idea, then perfect for LF. It's a win-win-win situation for LF.

[Gargarax]

I doubt Varys doesn't know. I'm rereading AGoT at the moment, and almost every chapter after the LF-Varys-Catelyn discussion has references to the tourney, and with every reference, it becomes clearer that it was an incredibly blantant lie. Everybody remembers the Loras-Jaime finale and everybody talks about the bets. I can't believe that the master of whispers wouldn't know if Tyrion had bet against Jaime, and that he wouldn't know whom the dagger belonged to. I'm quite sure Varys knows LF's statement for a lie. You're right though, he can't suddenly admit he knew all along. Still, if Varys and LF didn't work together on this somehow, telling such an obvious lie in Varys' presence doesn't seem win-win at all to me.

[maiden of tarth]

I do think Joffrey was behind it. He hired someone to kill Tyrion during the battle at Kings Landing. Hiring people to do his dirty work was Joffreys MO.

[lisahampton]

Am I right in saying there is an illusion in the stiry telling. Order if events...

Bran gets pushed from the window and is left convalescing in bed with Cat keeping vigil.

The wolves are howling

A fire is started

And the armed attacker tries to stab Cat in order ti try abd kil Bran..so we thing.... maybe aimed at cat maybe premeditated before Brans fall.

Cat travels to kibfs landing

Little finger directs her to the brothel

Varys knows if the knife attack

LF claims original ownership....claiming to have lost it in a bet during a celebratin joust for joeffrys name day. We never see this contest because its before GoT begins...ie it may just be a msde up story to cause the war between starks and Lannister....as revenge for Brandons attack on LF and loosing Cat as a prospect. ....ie we dont see evidence. ..

All the jousting we see is sequentially after Brans fall.

So if LF never owned the valairian steel dagger....whos dagger was it?????

[Laniki]

I do think Joffrey was behind it. He hired someone to kill Tyrion during the battle at Kings Landing. Hiring people to do his dirty work was Joffreys MO.

The only way I can see Joff being behind this is for Tyrion slapping him around for not offering his condolence. But would he know about the dagger? It's possible that Robert bragged of winning it around Joff and that's how he knows of it. Also, it seems out of character for Joff to offer mercy to Bran.

How does Joff get the connections to hire an assassin as far north as Winterfell that has the cunning to hide out for eight days? Also, if Joff hired an assassin, why would the assassin use a valaryan dagger for the murder? The dagger would be incriminating for a commoner to have in his possession as they're rare and highly prized by nobles. The dagger alone would be worth a small fortune and would Joff pay him twice, the valaryan dagger and the bag of silver. What I find troubling is how does Joff find such a guy to do this in such a short time at Winterfell where Ned is held so high in regard? What I find more believable is that the assassin was sent along with the entourage with direction to kill any of Ned's children and leave the dagger behind as evidence. Jamie pushing Bran out the window was unexpected and that Bran continued to live made him an easy target.

[Ürglõvi]

The only way I can see Joff being behind this is for Tyrion slapping him around for not offering his condolence. But would he know about the dagger? It's possible that Robert bragged of winning it around Joff and that's how he knows of it. Also, it seems out of character for Joff to offer mercy to Bran.

How does Joff get the connections to hire an assassin as far north as Winterfell that has the cunning to hide out for eight days? Also, if Joff hired an assassin, why would the assassin use a valaryan dagger for the murder? The dagger would be incriminating for a commoner to have in his possession as they're rare and highly prized by nobles. The dagger alone would be worth a small fortune and would Joff pay him twice, the valaryan dagger and the bag of silver. What I find troubling is how does Joff find such a guy to do this in such a short time at Winterfell where Ned is held so high in regard? What I find more believable is that the assassin was sent along with the entourage with direction to kill any of Ned's children and leave the dagger behind as evidence. Jamie pushing Bran out the window was unexpected and that Bran continued to live made him an easy target.

Evidence against whom? It was Robert's dagger which he won from Littlefinger, I doubt either was meant to be a suspect.

Also, an invaluable dagger left behind is a blatantly obvious frame-up, more so than getting it from a catspaw caught in action.

The catspaw was probably a part of the king's entourage, there were loads of people there. He was also so obviously unreliable that only an idiot like Joffrey would hire him. A small wonder he didn't just skedaddle as soon as he was paid.

It was Joffrey. We have both Jaime and Tyrion separately coming to the same conclusion, which is a good literary shorthand to confirm something as a fact wihtout being tedious about it.

[Laniki]

Evidence against whom? It was Robert's dagger which he won from Littlefinger, I doubt either was meant to be a suspect.

Also, an invaluable dagger left behind is a blatantly obvious frame-up, more so than getting it from a catspaw caught in action.

The catspaw was probably a part of the king's entourage, there were loads of people there. He was also so obviously unreliable that only an idiot like Joffrey would hire him. A small wonder he didn't just skedaddle as soon as he was paid.

It was Joffrey. We have both Jaime and Tyrion separately coming to the same conclusion, which is a good literary shorthand to confirm something as a fact wihtout being tedious about it.

The assassin was paid with a bag of silver and could use any weapon of his choice. So, why give him Robert’s winning dagger from Littlefinger.

As I previously indicated, perhaps the assassin was meant to leave it. That’s why he was paid the bag of silver.

I agree that he must have come with the king’s entourage. As previously indicated, it’s unlikely that an assassin could be found in Winterfell that would harm a Stark. But why would an assassin be traveling with the king? Is everyone brought from Kings Landing capable of being an assassin? The entourage didn’t bring any nobles and staff that came had a purpose. Would a wainwright or ferrier do the deed, perhaps a falconer or a fletcher. Someone had better know what they’re doing to kill with a knife. To be able to conceal himself for days after the entaurage left Winterfell and to create the diversion that would enlist everyone, then to use stealth to gain access to his victim with the intent to kill a child is not the type of person that could be picked up randomly.

Jaime and Tyrion may have been wrong.

[Ürglõvi]

The assassin was paid with a bag of silver and could use any weapon of his choice. So, why give him Robert’s winning dagger from Littlefinger.

Because Joffrey is an idiot? Also, not that many people would have an access to King Bob's weapon cache.

As I previously indicated, perhaps the assassin was meant to leave it. That’s why he was paid the bag of silver.

As I said, leaving behind an invaluable dagger makes it obvious you are trying to frame someone. Frame who anyay? Robert?

I agree that he must have come with the king’s entourage. As previously indicated, it’s unlikely that an assassin could be found in Winterfell that would harm a Stark. But why would an assassin be traveling with the king? Is everyone brought from Kings Landing capable of being an assassin? The entourage didn’t bring any nobles and staff that came had a purpose. Would a wainwright or ferrier do the deed, perhaps a falconer or a fletcher. Someone had better know what they’re doing to kill with a knife. To be able to conceal himself for days after the entaurage left Winterfell and to create the diversion that would enlist everyone, then to use stealth to gain access to his victim with the intent to kill a child is not the type of person that could be picked up randomly.

Considering what a botched up job he made, I wouldn't be too fast to call him an assassin. Probably some sort of sellsword who had a vague idea of stealth and a need for distraction. Hardly a Faceless Man material.

Jaime and Tyrion may have been wrong.

That wouldn't make much sense from narrative point of view. In Book 1 we have a Murder Mystery. In Book 2 all the usual suspects get eliminated one by one. In Book 3 we almost forget about it, until Tyrion has an epiphany. Then Jaime has the same epiphany. And in Book 6 it suddenly turns out they were both wrong?

Who do you think sent the catspaw, btw?

[Laniki]

Baelish always has loved Catelyn and used Lysa’s infatuation with him to administer the poison that was likely given by him to murder Jon Arryn, which forced Robert to turn to Ned. Lysa also did his bidding by writing the letter to Catelyn, pinning the murder of Arryn on the Lannister’s initiating the suspicions the Stark’s had toward them. My assumption is that it could have been any one of Ned’s true children that were targets. Bran’s unexpected survival of the fall would make him the easiest target for an assassin. Baelish’s motive to kill one of Ned’s kids would add to the Lannister suspicions and Stark revenge for the crime. It would be assumed that Catelyn would come with Ned to Kings Landing and in that way Baelish would be close to her, similar to how he was able to get close and influence Lysa. Bran’s survival and Catelyn’s vigil couldn’t have been pre-considered. The assassin hid for eight days from the time Ned left until the attempt on Bran. Fire was no small matter in times before pumps were invented. So, when fire broke out, everyone would take action to prevent it spreading. The assassin didn’t count on Catelyn being so despondent with grief over Bran that she would abdicate all responsibility toward protecting her house. But he would most likely have succeeded if not for Summer, which he also didn’t anticipate being there.

Petyr telling Sansa:

“In the game of thrones, even the humblest pieces can have wills of their own. Sometimes they refuse to make the moves you’ve planned for them. Mark that well Alayne. It’s a lesson that Cersei Lannister still has yet to learn.”

No, he wasn’t a Faceless Man, but a sellsword like Bronn would have been quite capable of doing the job.

From the Wiki, Tyrion researches Littlefinger and finds:

“And in the process, he moved his own men into place. The Keepers of the Keys were his, all four. The King's Counter and the King of Scales were men he named. The officers in charge of all three mints. Harbormasters, tax farmers, custom sergeants, wool factors, toll collectors, pursers, wine factors; nine of every ten belonged to Littlefinger.”

Littlefinger had direct access through a number of sources that could provide the type of man he needs.

Do I think Littlefinger was responsible for the attack on Bran? I think that he’s as likely as Joff and has a better motive and resources. Littlefinger is a player in the game of thrones and he’s got a long con going. Creating chaos is where he gains his power. Should he have been behind the attack and the eventual downfall of the realm stemming from it, Petyr Baelish wouldn’t be suspected. That seems just like a move Littlefinger would make.

[Ürglõvi]

Uh yes, because killing Cat's child in Winterfell is likely to encourage her come south and bring her family. Not.

If LF had planned to blame the Lannisters from the start, he would have used a dagger that actually belonged to one of them. It was pure luck that Ned&Cat didn't go straight to Robert (which they might have if their son was murdered) and he would have recognized the dagger instantly.

(I repeat, leaving a murder weapon at the scene practically screams 'frame-up'.)

There's also the fact that GRRM confirmed the dagger mystery will be resolved in Storm.

[Laniki]

Uh yes, because killing Cat's child in Winterfell is likely to encourage her come south and bring her family. Not.

If LF had planned to blame the Lannisters from the start, he would have used a dagger that actually belonged to one of them. It was pure luck that Ned&Cat didn't go straight to Robert (which they might have if their son was murdered) and he would have recognized the dagger instantly.

(I repeat, leaving a murder weapon at the scene practically screams 'frame-up'.)

There's also the fact that GRRM confirmed the dagger mystery will be resolved in Storm.

The eventuality is that killing one of the Stark children would destabilize the kingdom. Yes, the dagger would have been recognized and a search would have happened to no avail. The point is, that the focus of the killing would be on members of the king's entourage.

Eventually, Either Ned continues on as Hand or Robert would have lost Ned’s friendship and Jaime would have been appointed Hand. With Jaime as Hand with Robert’s days numbered, Littlefinger could end up doing anything he wanted. Littlefinger has no compassion for any of the Stark kids. To him, they’re all Ned’s, except after he got an eyeful of the spitting image of young Catelyn in Sansa. Littlefinger’s purpose is to destabilize the realm while being the guy in the background appearing to have as much influence of a hedge knight.

[Ürglõvi]

The eventuality is that killing one of the Stark children would destabilize the kingdom. Yes, the dagger would have been recognized and a search would have happened to no avail. The point is, that the focus of the killing would be on members of the king's entourage.

Eventually, Either Ned continues on as Hand or Robert would have lost Ned’s friendship and Jaime would have been appointed Hand. With Jaime as Hand with Robert’s days numbered, Littlefinger could end up doing anything he wanted. Littlefinger has no compassion for any of the Stark kids. To him, they’re all Ned’s, except after he got an eyeful of the spitting image of young Catelyn in Sansa. Littlefinger’s purpose is to destabilize the realm while being the guy in the background appearing to have as much influence of a hedge knight.

Ah well, better agree to disagree.

It's just... not everything plot relevant is dependant on Littlefinger, you know. :)

[WunWun11]

My first post!

I saw the South Park parody of Game of Thrones in late December and was intrigued, so I binge watched the first 3 seasons online, then was so addicted that I bought all the books for Kindle and have read all five in the last four months. Binge reading! What an amazing and captivating world that George R. R. Martin has created, eh?

OK, to the point of this specific thread:

1. I think I think the identity of whomever sponsored the Catspaw will be a another shocker in book 6 or 7.

2. I think that the motive will be a shocker, and will have nothing to do with Jamie and Cersei in the tower.

3. I think we will learn that the assassination on Bran had already been ordered and planned, and that it was just a useful (for storytelling and misdirection) coincidence to have had Bran see the Lannister incest and be pushed to his near-death by Jamie.

Now that I have established myself as both a newb AND a nutjob :drool: , let me explain...

Remember how Aegon was dead at Gregor's hands for several books, like definitively dead-- until he ended up aboard a ship with Tyrion in A Dance with Dragons? That is how Bran's assassination has been written IMHO. First we were told it was Tyrion's knife, won from Littlefinger in Joffrey's name-day tournament, but this seems to have just been a lie by Littlefinger to further his own ends. Later Tyrion SPECULATED that Joffrey stole the extremely unique dagger from Robert's collection and gave it to the assassin to kill Bran... but this doesn't hold much water. For one thing, would Joffrey be that stupid, to give such a highly recognizable blade from Robert's collection to some lowlife-for-hire? He would surely know that if the assassin was caught with it (as did happen!), it would lead back to him/Robert/King's Landing. And if such a unique knife was from Robert's collection, wouldn't his armorer (Ser Aron Santagar) have recognized it from Ser Rodrik Cassel's description in King's Landing? (Recall that Vary's 'little birds' heard this discussion between Rodrik and Aron.) Apparently Ser Aron did not recognize it, since the GoT narrative pursued Littlefinger's lie for a book or so... No, this whole "Joffrey took it from Robert and gave it to the assassin" is tissue-thin, and I will be shocked if it isn't overturned by GRRM as just another misdirection.

So what then? Well, while Bran's importance to the story has evolved slowly, he is poised to be a most central character to the conclusion of the series. Is it an accident that the very first chapter of the whole series (apart from the prologue), the chapter that started the whole GoT universe, is attributed to Bran? I think that's intentional to indicate the importance Bran would have as the story evolved. Otherwise that first chapter could have just as easily been attributed to Robb or Jon or Eddard.

Also critical about Bran-- he is slated to be the next greenseer, perhaps the only greenseer. Only one in a million people (a thousand thousand) is born to be a greenseer. If some other characters or forces in the book had come to know that Bran was slated to be the next greenseer, its conceivable they would want to kill him. For example, if Melisandre had looked in the fires and seen Bran's future as a greenseer, wouldn't she see that as an affront to R'hllor and a possible threat to Stannis' rule in the name of the Lord of Light? Perhaps the Catspaw was a servant of the Lord of Light, making his choice to distract Winterfell by setting a fire not just an arbitrary choice...

And before you dismiss my speculation of "some entity" seeing Bran's future and taking action, remember the other omen from the very first chapter of the very first book-- the direwolf pups, 3 males, 2 females... and one oddity albino... for the 3 males, 2 females, and 1 bastard of the House of Stark. Who sent those? These were themselves sent by "some entity" that foresaw trouble coming for the Stark children and took action to help them. So it is plausible that Bran's "one in a million" role would have been foreseen by others, perhaps Others, and that they would have moved to kill him...

Food for thought. Now I have to go prepare for the evening. You know what I mean-- the night is dark, and full of terrors and all, ha ha...