The Starks will Rise

[bardstark]

I partially agree but that didn't work out so well in the south.

not at all. and i think that is what got them in this perdicament, and the Boltons to have an advantage. Ned knew he ought to have stayed in WF, but he can't deny his braj, Robert.

But now they are tied into the southron game of thrones, for better or worse.

[The WarHammer]

OK Here is my theory on the Starks rising.

Rickon will have the people of Skagos behind him as well as the White Harbor. Ready to kill all boltons and Ironmen!!!

- I say this because from what i understand of the people on Skagos are of the north but seem to be as much as wildling as Osha. I think they will respect him as a Warg, his blood being that of the First men and his temper and evolving savage nature (this how i feel it will happen)

If LF's plan for Sansa comes to be true.

-If she shows up at the alter with her house colors, to the shock of everyone there.

- Her Maidenhood has never been broken plus her current husband is a Kingslayer and Kinslayer so in the "light of the Seven" the marriage was never "Complete"

-The Vale is now on their side

Jon Snow isnt dead he will be king in the north

-Jon Snow was legitimized by his brother/cousin(I believe R+L=JS) Robb in front of a number of his bannerman.

-Holland Reed is the only man that knows the truth of Jon's birth and holds his paper legitimizing him as a Stark.

-Him being stabbed in the back by his "Black Brothers" should be as good as a discharge from his vows to the Nights Watch.

-He has friend at Karhold and the wildlings would follow him.

[The Key Is Patchface]

I dont get the whole 'Stannis is amazing' thing. He isnt AAR, and dragons are returning. I just cant see him being alive by the end of the book

are Dragons returning though?? I mean we all assume they will...but at this point we also have to entertain the thought that Dany will never cross the narrow sea with her dragons...George has been teasing us with Dragons back in Westeros the entire time, and just when it looks like it might happen it doesn't...I wouldn't be shocked if the Dragons are either killed or never cross

[sumant30]

are Dragons returning though?? I mean we all assume they will...but at this point we also have to entertain the thought that Dany will never cross the narrow sea with her dragons...George has been teasing us with Dragons back in Westeros the entire time, and just when it looks like it might happen it doesn't...I wouldn't be shocked if the Dragons are either killed or never cross

Dragons are going to be the key in killing the others.

[Starkbringer]

Maybe I have tunnelvision but I believe that the entire series is about Jon Snow (Ice = Lyanna, Fire = Rhaegar). Jon will definately rise again and songs will be written about him. It is epic. A tragedy of forbidden love, wars fought to deny the truth, revenge for traitorous acts, and evil everywhere against the few honest and noble. Jon may have the dragon's blood in his veins but at heart he is a Stark and he must survive til the bittersweet end. Stannis is too hard and no man loves him, he can not rule. Dany should get back something good for all she has given and had taken from her. All the Lannisters need to die. They can not be trusted. Even Tyrion and I like Tyrion alot, but he is still a Lannister through and through. I really hope good things happen for Samwell and Gendry too. Brienne is good but too stubborn for her own good. Jamie is learning what nobility looks like and I hope he and Theon can redeem themselves before they die. But in the end... THE STARKS WILL RISE.

[Theon The Hungry Wolf]

I often think that Stannis is just a huge red herring. I mean let's look at it this way:

- Didn't appear until 2nd book, throughout the first book he was slandered by members of court. This stopped many people from liking him greatly.

- As soon as he appears he is heralded as a hero and AAR, readers are thinking wtf is this guy on?

- He is believe to have a magic sword and the one true God behind him. His oracle was wrong and he lost most of his men due to this. (The Blackwater)

- When he arrives as his new destination it is revealed that in fact his sword is not lightbringer as it does not give off heat.

- He decides to take Winterfell, the main sum of his forces are from men who openly say they are only doing it for 'The Ned'. This shows they are not loyal to him, but to the Starks.

All of this shows Stannis has been gradually going downhill.

As soon as a Stark shows up, the North will rally under them. Leaving Stannis with nothing, Stannis will grind his teeth at this and maybe even try to fight, only to be swiftly put down. It will be a tragedy, whether he dies or not, if he doesn't he will get Storm's End. Yet worth it for the Starks to return. Stannis was not made to be king, he was made to bring order and justice, which he will be doing with the Starks. He will be more like Torrhen Stark reborn, he may march out to battle to fight Danaerys with his remaining men, only to bend the knee.

[direwolf_of_white_fangs]

winter has come and westeros will face harsh times

The true masters of the north are the starks, the ones that build the wall and tamed the wildlings and fought the others.

When things gets tuff and the cold winds rise, even in the south, the whole place engulfed by snow and cold,

The Starks will rise up.

[Greymoon]

My thoughts on the Starks and Jon:

Jon is not quite dead yet, or will be resurected. It seems to me, that Jon is quite a good candidate for King, in the north or Westeros...why? The first motive might be Robb's letter, however, we don't know what it says. I think that regardless of its content, some clues as to Jon's possible future, are given us in the text.

Hypothese: The northmen are preparing to double cross Stannis. They don't want to burn any brigdes however, so for now, they wait and observe. We have clues in the following:

• The letter from Lyanna Mormont. She's ten, anyone can claim she's just a little girl and didn't know what she was doing or talking about. However, I doubt she wrote the letter on her own volition. I think the letter expresses the opinion of Lady Mormont, or is possibly meant to clue Jon in. In which case Lyanna serves as some sort of insurance policy for when/if the Mormonts do decide that Stannis is worth their time. Ultimately the decision of whether or not the Mormonts back Stannis, lies with Alysanne. She's a scout of a sort, and is meant to evaluate Stannis's worth as a King.
  
• the mountain clans showed up at the wall for the Karstark/Wildling marriage... I believe they were sent out/decided to go up to the wall to appraise Jon Snow, his relationship to the wildlings and his ability to lead.
  

Assumptions:

• Jon Snow is a likely candidate for the Northmen because in the absence of a Stark, he's an apt replacement/a good compromise for Stark loyalists. Furthermore he's already prooven himself a capable war commander when he held the wall.
  
• The Northmen and the wildlings are ennemies, but might fight together if their religion is being threatened, in which case the Northmen might look towards a middle-man who is both familiar with the ways of the north and the northern lords and is acquainted with the wildlings or might have a modicum of control over them.
  

Further general assumptions:

• The name doesn't make the King. Whether Jon is legitimized as a Stark or is the son of a Targaryen, doesn't matter. What matters is that people see him, Jon Snow, as a worthy leader. He needs an army to back any claim he may or may not have. History shows, that charisma is usualy a good thing for any war general to have (Robert Baratheon is a good ex.). Jon seems to have a strong charisma, if the wildlings reaction to him and his relationship to Tormund Giantsbane can be trusted. Stannis, on the other hand, seems to lack charisma a great deal.
  
• Genealogy is not important. If we look at our own middle ages, most genealogies were falsified to suit a purpose. In the book, it's quite clear that few care to question whether Joeffrey and Tommen are bastards as long as the Lannister have power to back the claim. As such, Robb's letter is also unimportant since Robb is dead and his army was crushed. The Northmen won't rely on the Riverlands anylonger, they'll fend for themselves. The few Stark loyalists out there might be satisfied with a half-brother bastard, regardless of Robbs whishes. In this regard, Jon is also a better candidate than either Bran or Rickon. Who would want a 9 year old crippled boy on a throne? worse, a five year old, who was raised by wildlings?
  
• Robb's letter, will arguably be important (if indeed, it names Jon Snow as his heir) when/if Jon manages to get himself an army and needs a way to legitimize his rule/claim. Whithout an army, the letter is worth nothing.
  

Additionaly: Mormont's Raven shrieks 'King' 'King' when he sees Jon. I don't remember what book this is in, but the raven does say it. And of course Melissandre gives us clues through her visions, though you might argue that AA will not necessarily be king and is not in fact the Prince That Was Promised.

Now, about Bran: Bran will likely stay with his tree and follow in Bloodravens shoes. I see him learning to communicate through the trees in which case... he could become the voice of the Old Gods and communicate with Jon, further strenghning Jon's position amongts the Northmen as the "Man who Spoke to The Gods".

Rickon I see as the future lord of Winterfell, insuring future good relations with the wildlings, since he'll likely be, at this point, half a wildling himself, not to mention a warg.

and Sansa...could help in mending relations between the North and the Riverlands, possibly also the Vale.

[TheNorthernWarrior]

Why does the relations between the North and Riverlands need mending? If anything they've never been better. They were united under Robb and both betrayed by the Freys and Boltons, and I would assume majority of both would prefer going back to the Stark and Tully rule. Both the Northern Lords and River Lords lost kin at the red wedding.

Other then some small resentment for the Vale sitting on the sidelines the whole time I don't see much problem there either, no girl is going to help that. If the Vale wants better relations with the Riverlands and North they'll have to help them restore proper order anything else is meaningless.

Honestly the way I see it playing out is a 2nd Dance of the Dragons, Dany vs Aegon, as the final Game of Thrones. The Irony of it being that instead of Roberts Rebellion of the North, Vale, Riverlands uniting to overthrow the Targs, they'll be uniting put to Dany back on the Iron Throne and the former loyalist fighting on the other side.

It will be:

Danny with her Armies, remnant Northern Armies, Vale Armies, remnant Riverland Armies

vs

Aegon with Golden Company, Dorne Armies, Reach Armies.

Stormlands and Westerlands essentially being army-less at this point.

[Gogossos]

It will be:

Danny with her Armies, remnant Northern Armies, Vale Armies, remnant Riverland Armies

vs

Aegon with Golden Company, Dorne Armies, Reach Armies.

Stormlands and Westerlands essentially being army-less at this point.

Interesting, but with Tyrion bringing in the Second Sons to take over Casterly Rock and put Dany on the Throne, you might add them to your equation. What I find intriguing is how Tyrion thought he'd duped "Aegon" into going west. He seems to think, like Strickland and Doran, that without dragons it's hopeless. Even with Dorne on their side, Aegon will still need to either wait for Dany to arrive to cement his hold or otherwise obtain one of her dragons. Of course he needs the dragon to play the Dance part 2. So how does he get one?

[Greymoon]

Why does the relations between the North and Riverlands need mending? If anything they've never been better. They were united under Robb and both betrayed by the Freys and Boltons, and I would assume majority of both would prefer going back to the Stark and Tully rule. Both the Northern Lords and River Lords lost kin at the red wedding.

Other then some small resentment for the Vale sitting on the sidelines the whole time I don't see much problem there either, no girl is going to help that. If the Vale wants better relations with the Riverlands and North they'll have to help them restore proper order anything else is meaningless.

The riverlands are in the hands of the Lannisters and Frey. Bolton is up north and Stannis is riding out to meet him. By the look of things, I gather that the North won't be in the hands of Bolton for much longer. Manderly is of doubtful loyalty, the Mormonts have already showed their support to Stannis, and other Northmen are waiting just outside the gates of Winterfell... Whether Stannis wins Winterfell back, or the Watch falls - which is also very likely, considering the number of Wildlings on either sides of the Wall - The North and Riverlands will soon be in the hands of yet again, different foes. Now, the Tullys might have been loyal to Robb. But Robb is dead, and so is Cat. They also do believe Rickan and Bran to be dead. Arya and Sansa have disappeared as well... so why should the Riverlands have any loyalty towards the few Stark men still out there?

My guess is that in the absence of Tully/Stark heir, neither the North nor the Riverlands have any true loyalty to each other. Plus, it's war, and we've seen countless of times that in times of war alliances can be broken, cloaks turned, and normal men behave like wolves. The Northmen will fend for themselves, they did it before, actually, and I think it's part of the Northern pride to be able to claim they resisted Aegon and his sisters for as long as they did. Doesn't someone in Kings landing speak of the Northmen as half-wildlings, that can't ever really be subdued? We've also seen how eager some of the northern lords were to reclaim their independence from the iron throne. Robb was King in the NORTH, to begin with. Not King of the North and the Riverlands.

Also, the southron lords and the northern ones have a very different religion. The first worship the Seven the second, the Old Gods, another matter of pride. So...no I don't believe their relationship has 'never been better' and I think it will likely deteriorate even more so. Winter is coming, after all. Be it the Others or a simple true winter, I think westeros is in serious danger of famine. What do people do, when they starve? They look out for their own.

Right now, however, the riverlands are besieged and the North is in shambles. Edmure doesn't seem the type to look for unnecessary trouble. He might seek revenge at some point, but I'd imagine he'd be quite glad to be alive, still... He might just decide to follow a 'wait and see' politic before raising banners again. The Blackfish, of course, has escaped. What his purpose is, however, is rather unclear. Maybe, he is indeed seeking some wayward allies somewhere...

With Sansa out of the picture, I don't think either Edmure nor the Blackfish have any reason to seek help amongst the Northmen. And if Robb's letter turns up and Jon was, indeed, named Robb's heir... The riverlands might resent the decision. Why should they accept another Northmen to rule them and a bastard to boot, who's the son of a man who brought shame unto dear Cat's marriage bed?

My guess is also that the Winds of Winter will focuse mostly on the North, whilst in the south, the true dance of Dragons begins, starring the Lannisters, Martells, Tyrells, Faegon and eventualy, Dany. Unless, she lands in the north, too. Which could be a possibility since the sea is quite stormy and we have already had slave traders from Lys landing well up north beyond the wall.

Or maybe...Dany will do a Galileo and discover that her planet is round... What, I ask, lays beyond Ashai? Isn't there also a Dothraki legend that speaks of 'Ghost grass, that glows with the spirit of the Damned' and eats all life? What if that ghost grass refers to the Others, who are 'thin as a blade', and what if far beyond the Dothraki sea...lays the land beyond the wall? That would solve her problems with the ships... problem she may no longer have anymore since she has abandonned her people and seems quite happy squatting in the grass with her lovely Drogon... Coincidentally, there's a Khal riding up to meet her, too. Who's to say that Dany won't indeed invade Westeros with an army of foot soldiers and horse lords, without ever stepping foot on a ship?

But anyway...back to the topic... for the north and the riverlands to be united you'd need one very powerful man in my opinion... or... you'd need someone who has a real claim to both and whom people want to use, and abuse out of various reasons. Sansa, has such a claim and appears quite innocent. She's also very friendly with sweet Robin, true lord of the Vale and might, or might not, marry Harry the Heir...

As to why the relationship between the Vale and the Riverlands might possibly need mending. Well... If I were Edmure Tully I'd be very angry with my dear sister. And besides, she's dead. The Vale has failed to come to their help every single time. Why should the riverlands turn to them now? Of course, you might argue... who else is there?

[Stannis must Die]

Stannis consented to using dark magic to kill his brother Renly to improve his chances of becoming king.

Stannis consented to using dark blood magic, and would have burned his innocent nephew to death, to Kill Robb Stark, Joffrey and Balon to improve his chances of becoming king.

Stannis had adulterous sex with Red Mel to improve his chances of becoming king.

Stannis abandoned his, his family's and his peoples Gods to improve his chances of becoming king.

Stannis bleats on about "Not wanting to be King but it's his duty"!

Looks like its all he wants to me.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Danny with her Armies, remnant Northern Armies, Vale Armies, remnant Riverland Armies

vs

Aegon with Golden Company, Dorne Armies, Reach Armies.

Stormlands and Westerlands essentially being army-less at this point.

Dany and North&Vale&Riverland? Why? How could they co-exist?

[W.Kane]

Stannis consented to using dark magic to kill his brother Renly to improve his chances of becoming king.

Stannis consented to using dark blood magic, and would have burned his innocent nephew to death, to Kill Robb Stark, Joffrey and Balon to improve his chances of becoming king.

Stannis had adulterous sex with Red Mel to improve his chances of becoming king.

Stannis abandoned his, his family's and his peoples Gods to improve his chances of becoming king.

Stannis bleats on about "Not wanting to be King but it's his duty"!

Looks like its all he wants to me.

1) Renly was a traitor and a bully who was going to kill Stannis (the rightful king and his older brother) . he deserved to die. and dark magic ?!! come on ...

2) he didn't wanted to kill Edric , he just considered it because :

" so long as I am the king, I have a duty … If I must sacrifice one child to the flames to save a million from the dark … Sacrifice … is never easy, Davos. Or it is no true sacrifice".

Robb , Balon and Joffrey were all traitors and usurpers and punishment of treason is DEATH. and he wasn't trying to improve his chances of becoming king , he is the rightful king , so he was doing his duty as a king . (punishing traitors and criminals)

3) adultery is not a crime, and are we sure it ever happened!?

4) he didn't abandon his peoples Gods , he didn't believe in it .

5) LOL.

so , what are you taking about?!!! is it even relevant to this topic?!!!

[Jon's Queen Consort]

snip

no just no

I never asked for this crown. Gold is cold & heavy on the head but so long as I am the king, I have a duty … If I must sacrifice one child to the flames to save a million from the dark … Sacrifice … is never easy, Davos. Or it is no true sacrifice.

[Lion of Judah]

I can't wait for the day when a Stark sits in Winterfell once again.

[aryagonnakill]

The riverlands are in the hands of the Lannisters and Frey. Bolton is up north and Stannis is riding out to meet him. By the look of things, I gather that the North won't be in the hands of Bolton for much longer. Manderly is of doubtful loyalty, the Mormonts have already showed their support to Stannis, and other Northmen are waiting just outside the gates of Winterfell... Whether Stannis wins Winterfell back, or the Watch falls - which is also very likely, considering the number of Wildlings on either sides of the Wall - The North and Riverlands will soon be in the hands of yet again, different foes. Now, the Tullys might have been loyal to Robb. But Robb is dead, and so is Cat. They also do believe Rickan and Bran to be dead. Arya and Sansa have disappeared as well... so why should the Riverlands have any loyalty towards the few Stark men still out there?

My guess is that in the absence of Tully/Stark heir, neither the North nor the Riverlands have any true loyalty to each other. Plus, it's war, and we've seen countless of times that in times of war alliances can be broken, cloaks turned, and normal men behave like wolves. The Northmen will fend for themselves, they did it before, actually, and I think it's part of the Northern pride to be able to claim they resisted Aegon and his sisters for as long as they did. Doesn't someone in Kings landing speak of the Northmen as half-wildlings, that can't ever really be subdued? We've also seen how eager some of the northern lords were to reclaim their independence from the iron throne. Robb was King in the NORTH, to begin with. Not King of the North and the Riverlands.

Also, the southron lords and the northern ones have a very different religion. The first worship the Seven the second, the Old Gods, another matter of pride. So...no I don't believe their relationship has 'never been better' and I think it will likely deteriorate even more so. Winter is coming, after all. Be it the Others or a simple true winter, I think westeros is in serious danger of famine. What do people do, when they starve? They look out for their own.

Right now, however, the riverlands are besieged and the North is in shambles. Edmure doesn't seem the type to look for unnecessary trouble. He might seek revenge at some point, but I'd imagine he'd be quite glad to be alive, still... He might just decide to follow a 'wait and see' politic before raising banners again. The Blackfish, of course, has escaped. What his purpose is, however, is rather unclear. Maybe, he is indeed seeking some wayward allies somewhere...

With Sansa out of the picture, I don't think either Edmure nor the Blackfish have any reason to seek help amongst the Northmen. And if Robb's letter turns up and Jon was, indeed, named Robb's heir... The riverlands might resent the decision. Why should they accept another Northmen to rule them and a bastard to boot, who's the son of a man who brought shame unto dear Cat's marriage bed?

My guess is also that the Winds of Winter will focuse mostly on the North, whilst in the south, the true dance of Dragons begins, starring the Lannisters, Martells, Tyrells, Faegon and eventualy, Dany. Unless, she lands in the north, too. Which could be a possibility since the sea is quite stormy and we have already had slave traders from Lys landing well up north beyond the wall.

Or maybe...Dany will do a Galileo and discover that her planet is round... What, I ask, lays beyond Ashai? Isn't there also a Dothraki legend that speaks of 'Ghost grass, that glows with the spirit of the Damned' and eats all life? What if that ghost grass refers to the Others, who are 'thin as a blade', and what if far beyond the Dothraki sea...lays the land beyond the wall? That would solve her problems with the ships... problem she may no longer have anymore since she has abandonned her people and seems quite happy squatting in the grass with her lovely Drogon... Coincidentally, there's a Khal riding up to meet her, too. Who's to say that Dany won't indeed invade Westeros with an army of foot soldiers and horse lords, without ever stepping foot on a ship?

But anyway...back to the topic... for the north and the riverlands to be united you'd need one very powerful man in my opinion... or... you'd need someone who has a real claim to both and whom people want to use, and abuse out of various reasons. Sansa, has such a claim and appears quite innocent. She's also very friendly with sweet Robin, true lord of the Vale and might, or might not, marry Harry the Heir...

As to why the relationship between the Vale and the Riverlands might possibly need mending. Well... If I were Edmure Tully I'd be very angry with my dear sister. And besides, she's dead. The Vale has failed to come to their help every single time. Why should the riverlands turn to them now? Of course, you might argue... who else is there?

Actually Robb was the King of the Riverlands, thats why the direwolf flew when Jaime Lannister captured it. They called him the King of the North after he won the battle at RiverRun and the Riverlands supported him too.

[direwolf_of_white_fangs]

I can't wait for the day when a Stark sits in Winterfell once again.

Me too. There Must be always a Stark in Winterefell.

[Vargo Hoat's Teddy Bear]

Lannister: all dead or gone except Cersei and Jaime

There's still Daven Lannister and a few other minor ones, btu I doubt they would pose threats.

[kidlatxo]

Hi I'm new here. Here in Manila we know winter is coming!

Wassup everyone!