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Lion of Judah

Divorce in the kingdoms

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Someone explain to me this process please. Tyrion got a divorce from Tysha, but I noticed that no one mentions this even when Tyrion openly discusses his prior marriage. I know Sansa is considered a conspirator in Joffrey's murder, but let's say her innocence is proven. Can Sansa divorce Tyrion since the marriage was never consummated and Tyrion was attainted?

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Don't think the Tysha-Tyrion was a divorce, more like a annulment. Pigs for witnesses, a drunken priest, no consent from Tywin, plenty to grasp there.

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From what I understand, my impression is that only the High Septon has the authority to dissolve marriages, although people with political power can obviously make a play to encourage him to rule in their favor.

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Don't think the Tysha-Tyrion was a divorce, more like a annulment. Pigs for witnesses, a drunken priest, no consent from Tywin, plenty to grasp there.

Hm...I thought a consummation would supersede this.

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From what I understand, my impression is that only the High Septon has the authority to dissolve marriages, although people with political power can obviously make a play to encourage him to rule in their favor.

Even in cases where the bedding has taken place?

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Even in cases where the bedding has taken place?

Yes, I think so, but that's assuming a High Septon who is open to Tywin's influence/manipulation. It seems like most recent High Septons have been willing to indulge the wishes of the high nobility for the right price, until the High Sparrow.

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Yes, I think so, but that's assuming a High Septon who is open to Tywin's influence/manipulation. It seems like most recent High Septons have been willing to indulge the wishes of the high nobility for the right price, until the High Sparrow.

Interesting, what about northern practices though? Can marriages be annulled in the North?

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It is very easy to get divorced. Just say it and it is done, you might need a random septon and a Lord though

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Someone explain to me this process please. Tyrion got a divorce from Tysha, but I noticed that no one mentions this even when Tyrion openly discusses his prior marriage. I know Sansa is considered a conspirator in Joffrey's murder, but let's say her innocence is proven. Can Sansa divorce Tyrion since the marriage was never consummated and Tyrion was attainted?

If I recall correctly, Tyrion's annulment with Tysha is very unclear and contradicts what the author has said about the process. Tyrion recalls that his father took care of it, but Martin states that at least one spouse must request it.

There really aren't clear rules and procedures about divorce or annulments. In the Faith, the High Septon or a Council of Faith can issue an annulment. I believe lack of consummation is one cause to seek annulment in the Faith, but it's not the only way. There was someone (name escapes me) who received an annulment because he was going to join the KG or something (it never happened).

In any case, the Faith (at least prior to the High Sparrow) has historically been easily swayed. It's likely that even if rules and procedures exist, they are rarely followed. If she were proven innocent, I believe Sansa would be able to obtain an annulment due to lack of consummation (if it can be proven) since her marriage was ministered by the Faith.

I don't think there is anything specific about annulments or divorce when it comes to other religious cultures. There are vague mentions of how marriages made at sword point are invalid. With the Drowned God, it seems acceptable to end a marriage by killing your wife. Don't think there has been anything specific concerning the Old Gods. It's rather difficult to tell because those who worship the Old Gods south of the wall have developed different traditions than those who worship north of the wall. It's a lot more flexible up north where issues such as land and wealth really have no bearing.

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Well, I am no lawyer, and catholic church law is alien to me. But an annullment means that "the marriage never happened", meaning the persons concerned have never been married before the law of the church and are free to marry again after catholic ideas, whereas a divorce is impossible in Catholizism as in Westeros.

A marriage obviously can be annulled even if the two people had sex since Tyrion and Tysha had but maybe only with the reason that it was invalid from the beginning: both were minors and there was no parental consent.

In civil law of our times, at least im my country, a marriage can only be annulled if it was invalid from the beginning: one person was forced or too young or simply bigamy - or that infamous intrusion into privacy when authorities claim that a marriage has been made for immigration reasons only.

This all in our times has no influence on the " legitimacy" of children since, at least in my country, there is no legal difference between children within or without a marriage concerning the financial or legal responsibility of parents.

But after catholic law children from an annulled marriage would be "illegitimate" since the marriage might be seen as always nonexistent, if children in Westeros made before the annullment are legitimate heirs or not I would not know. But in Tyrion's and Tysha's case this would be hard to prove since Tysha was probably raped in the same menstrual cycle as she had made love with Tyrion.

Apart from that it is highly unlikely that a thirteen year old girl can bring a pregnancy to term after a rape like that. Tysha might have been seriously ill from infections and suffer some damages of the urogenital tract (correct English??).

I still have the crackpot theory that Sansa's and Tyrion's marriage will be annulled by someone somehow but that in the end they may choose to turn the annullment invalid by marrying again or by having sex and thus validitating the marriage, for political reasons, for feeling "at home" with each other or for outright liking each other, I would not know but there is a certain plot logic to take up their relationship again. Maybe not as endgame because one or both may die but as rounded story arc. I would like that only if Sansa gets truly emotionally mature until then - and Tyrion too.

I think that Tyrion finding Tysha and having a "happy ending" this way would be too sweet.

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If I recall correctly, Tyrion's annulment with Tysha is very unclear and contradicts what the author has said about the process. Tyrion recalls that his father took care of it, but Martin states that at least one spouse must request it.

There really aren't clear rules and procedures about divorce or annulments. In the Faith, the High Septon or a Council of Faith can issue an annulment. I believe lack of consummation is one cause to seek annulment in the Faith, but it's not the only way. There was someone (name escapes me) who received an annulment because he was going to join the KG or something (it never happened).

In any case, the Faith (at least prior to the High Sparrow) has historically been easily swayed. It's likely that even if rules and procedures exist, they are rarely followed. If she were proven innocent, I believe Sansa would be able to obtain an annulment due to lack of consummation (if it can be proven) since her marriage was ministered by the Faith.

I don't think there is anything specific about annulments or divorce when it comes to other religious cultures. There are vague mentions of how marriages made at sword point are invalid. With the Drowned God, it seems acceptable to end a marriage by killing your wife. Don't think there has been anything specific concerning the Old Gods. It's rather difficult to tell because those who worship the Old Gods south of the wall have developed different traditions than those who worship north of the wall. It's a lot more flexible up north where issues such as land and wealth really have no bearing.

Sounds like Quentyn 'Fireball" Ball, but his wife joined the silent sisters.

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Well, I am no lawyer, and catholic church law is alien to me. But an annullment means that "the marriage never happened", meaning the persons concerned have never been married before the law of the church and are free to marry again after catholic ideas, whereas a divorce is impossible in Catholizism as in Westeros. A marriage obviously can be annulled even if the two people had sex since Tyrion and Tysha had but maybe only with the reason that it was invalid from the beginning: both were minors and there was no parental consent. In civil law of our times, at least im my country, a marriage can only be annulled if it was invalid from the beginning: one person was forced or too young or simply bigamy - or that infamous intrusion into privacy when authorities claim that a marriage has been made for immigration reasons only. This all in our times has no influence on the " legitimacy" of children since, at least in my country, there is no legal difference between children within or without a marriage concerning the financial or legal responsibility of parents. But after catholic law children from an annulled marriage would be "illegitimate" since the marriage might be seen as always nonexistent, if children in Westeros made before the annullment are legitimate heirs or not I would not know. But in Tyrion's and Tysha's case this would be hard to prove since Tysha was probably raped in the same menstrual cycle as she had made love with Tyrion. Apart from that it is highly unlikely that a thirteen year old girl can bring a pregnancy to term after a rape like that. Tysha might have been seriously ill from infections and suffer some damages of the urogenital tract (correct English??). I still have the crackpot theory that Sansa's and Tyrion's marriage will be annulled by someone somehow but that in the end they may choose to turn the annullment invalid by marrying again or by having sex and thus validitating the marriage, for political reasons, for feeling "at home" with each other or for outright liking each other, I would not know but there is a certain plot logic to take up their relationship again. Maybe not as endgame because one or both may die but as rounded story arc. I would like that only if Sansa gets truly emotionally mature until then - and Tyrion too. I think that Tyrion finding Tysha and having a "happy ending" this way would be too sweet.

Nice breakdown. I always wondered about the benefits of an annulment over a divorce, but an annulment would cancel any claim because it's basically saying that you were never married.

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Tywin bullied everyone into acting as if the marrriage had never happened. He could do that because it wasn' t widely known the marriage had take place, but there was no legal recourse for a divorce or annulment.

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There is that wonderful movie "the Return Of Martin Guerre" with Natalie Baye! and Gerard D├ępardieu! where children made within a marriage that turned out to be invalid were illegitimate even if at the moment of their making the marriage was thought to be valid. The story is based on a real criminal case in the sixteenth century.

But if Martin chooses to introduce a child from Tysha and Tyrion this would be stretching plausibility a bit too much for me (well it's fantasy, but...) since it is highly unlkely that Tysha was healthy enough to have that child. And how to prove it is Tyrion's? Even a dwarf child would be no proof since the only man we have met who had a dwarf child was a handsome tall guy. But of course Tyrion could always choose to legitimize a child if there is a remote possibility even if he does not know at all if it is his. And any child Sansa has without an annullment would by law be Tyrion's even if he himself is far away from her, as long as he does not officially deny his fatherhood. (crackpot of mine: Tyrion may end with bringing up some children that are not his, a child from maybe dead Sansa nobody else wants or Tommen....or...Getting his second greatest wish, a family, fulfilled.)

And that fantasy trope: "He just feels it is his heir"..... is fantasy. Though another heir to Casterly Rock could cause some nice story twists i believe that the Tysha/Tyrion story will remain unsolved, no reconciliation, his part of guilt will scar Tyrion's soul forever and be part of his personality. Learning to deal with it will make him mature.

Though there may well be introduced a fake Tysha like fake Arya in order to lure Tyrion into a hasty and impudent political move. I guess he would returm to Westeros in no time and seek and try to save Tysha if he believes her still alive and in danger. Someone might shape a very cunning and effective trap for Tyrion this way that might be his doom - or the betrayal for love to Dany, Tyrion's love for Tysha.

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Someone explain to me this process please. Tyrion got a divorce from Tysha, but I noticed that no one mentions this even when Tyrion openly discusses his prior marriage. I know Sansa is considered a conspirator in Joffrey's murder, but let's say her innocence is proven. Can Sansa divorce Tyrion since the marriage was never consummated and Tyrion was attainted?

It's all about politics. In principle, Sansa should be able to get her marriage to Tyrion annulled, on the ground that she was wedded by force.

Whether she can actually do so will depend on how politically influential she is in the future.

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I think that works something similar to this:

Your wife is an adulteress: divorce.

Your wife is a prostitute (Tysha is treated as a prostitute by lannister soldiers and called that by Lord Tywin): divorce.

Your wife cannot give you children (in medieval times is always the wife fault!): annulment.

You join some celibate organization (KG, NW or the Maesters): annulment.

Your wife is a close relative: annulmeent or, if you are quite powerful (like the Targaryens) nothing happens.

You are a husband so bad (even for medieval standards) to your wife: nothing happens or, if you father in law is powerful, your wife can see the annulment of the marriage.

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Just another case of money and power allowing people to do whatever. I'm sure the Faith could've kicked up a stink if they wanted to, but would the High Septon really want to oppose Tywin?

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Ser Gregor was divorced a few times. I suppose given the alternatives, annulment is a kinder friendlier method of ending a marriage in Westeros.

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I think that works something similar to this:

Your wife is an adulteress: divorce.

Your wife is a prostitute (Tysha is treated as a prostitute by lannister soldiers and called that by Lord Tywin): divorce.

Your wife cannot give you children (in medieval times is always the wife fault!): annulment.

You join some celibate organization (KG, NW or the Maesters): annulment.

Your wife is a close relative: annulmeent or, if you are quite powerful (like the Targaryens) nothing happens.

You are a husband so bad (even for medieval standards) to your wife: nothing happens or, if you father in law is powerful, your wife can see the annulment of the marriage.

In the seven kingdoms they only ever talk about annulment when consummation has not occurred, so I don't think it would be permitted in the case of a childless marriage. I don't think it has ever come up but I would think that in a case of a man wanting to set aside a wife he would have to send her to the silent sisters or one of the other orders. I wouldn't count one of the spouses joining an order as an annulment. Wouldn't annulment mean that any offspring of the marriage were retroactively illegitimate? Going into one of the celibate orders would seem to me more like a divorce, although Westerosi do not use the term.

A woman has as much power against her husband as her family is willing to give her support. If he treats her badly the extreme reaction would be to make her a widow. If not they might provide for her so she does not have to continue living with her husband, but separation does not an annulment make - they would continue to be married.

Just another case of money and power allowing people to do whatever. I'm sure the Faith could've kicked up a stink if they wanted to, but would the High Septon really want to oppose Tywin?

The High Septon is unlikely to have lear'nt that Tyrion and Tysha were married. Even the Lannister guardsmen, who presumably knew that the two had set up house together, may not have known about the septon performing a marriage. If only a handful of people know about a marriage and they are all pretending it did not happen out of fear of Tywin than that is the effectively the same as the marriage not happening - but in the legal sense the marriage did happen and was not annulled.

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Ser Gregor was divorced a few times. I suppose given the alternatives, annulment is a kinder friendlier method of ending a marriage in Westeros.

Wasn't he more "widowed under suspicious circumstances" than divorced though?

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