Paper Books vs. Electronic

[Errant Bard]

I'm not sure how not paying artists for their work will bring about a post-scarcity society, but if you figure out a way sign me up. I'll put my work on every torrent site you can name, plus a few others.

You'll be the first informed. After the the guys copyrighting my idea, of course. And I'll expect everyone to pay me to know. Poor people, students, children can go die.

When an obvious case comes up, you shut it down, that kind of thing. Like with napster.

Meh. What did closing Napster accomplish, in the end? It's not efficient.

that doesn't mean you shouldn't keep trying. And in the trying you just might keep the levels of whatever it is low.

The important thing is how you try, how you spend your resources, though. Killing homeless people solves the problem, but it's not really an acceptable solution, yes? Ditto for some "solutions" tried.

As for really combatting it? The best way is actually to provide more outlets. Honest people are going to pay for stuff as long as its convenient. See Itunes for a reason the amount of music piracy has sort of declined. Make it convenient, and make it worthwhile and I do think people will pay for the whatever.

I agree.

Oh, I was actually only talking about you and me when I said "only one here."

This is a truth we should examine around a drink, or several, as it may be.

[MisterOJ]

So if a person goes out and buys a physical copy of a book, but then downloads the same book without paying for it a second time and reads in on an e-reader, is that stealing?

[TrackerNeil]

So if a person goes out and buys a physical copy of a book, but then downloads the same book without paying for it a second time and reads in on an e-reader, is that stealing?

Apparently, it's an act of heroism, or something.

[Mr. E]

So if a person goes out and buys a physical copy of a book, but then downloads the same book without paying for it a second time and reads in on an e-reader, is that stealing?

That's simply redundant.

[MisterOJ]

That's simply redundant.

Is it?

I prefer reading on my Nook. Joe Abercrombie's First Law series isn't available for the Nook through Barnes & Noble.. I went out to a bookstore and bought a physical copy of The Blade Itself. Then, I downloaded a pirated copy of the book so I could read it on my Nook.

Am I a thief or no?

[Mr. E]

Is it?

I prefer reading on my Nook. Joe Abercrombie's First Law series isn't available for the Nook through Barnes & Noble.. I went out to a bookstore and bought a physical copy of The Blade Itself. Then, I downloaded a pirated copy of the book so I could read it on my Nook.

Am I a thief or no?

Prevarication, prevarication, philosophical jargon, attempts to dodge question cause doesn't want to make Mister OJ mad, more prevarication, and cute emoticon thrown in for no reason than to defuse tension.

That's what I think anyway.

[MisterOJ]

Prevarication, prevarication, philosophical jargon, attempts to dodge question cause doesn't want to make Mister OJ mad, more prevarication, and cute emoticon thrown in for no reason than to defuse tension.

That's what I think anyway.

Don't worry about hurting my feelings on the matter.

I don't think I stole anything. I paid for the book I wanted to read. And then found a way to read it in the format I prefer. If it was available as a ebook for the Nook, I would have bought it that way, it would have been much simpler. But, I didn't. Now the paper book sits on a shelf and a digital copy is on my Nook.

I think what I did was perfectly fine, but others may have a different opinion.

Do you?

[Mr. E]

Don't worry about hurting my feelings on the matter.

I don't think I stole anything. I paid for the book I wanted to read. And then found a way to read it in the format I prefer. If it was available as a ebook for the Nook, I would have bought it that way, it would have been much simpler. But, I didn't. Now the paper book sits on a shelf and a digital copy is on my Nook.

I think what I did was perfectly fine, but others may have a different opinion.

Do you?

Sigh... :crying:

Here's the thing--I'm simply looking at it from a completely cold, completely Spock-like standpoint.

But the Nook version would have cost, what, 9.99? And so if Joe gets 1.00 from that, then he has been denied that dollar that by all rights he should have gotten; in my opinion...that's pretty much theft. I mean, if I went into Walmart and (bear with me here) somehow copied one of the blu-rays they have on displayed and then left the store, though Walmart has not lost anything physical, they've lost potential cash flow. It's the same thing. Again, I don't think it makes anyone a bad person. I don't think it makes me a bad person. And I'm sure Joe Abercrombie is much happier with the $3.50 he got off the book sale than the $1.00 he would have gotten off the Nook sale. But...yeah...

[MisterOJ]

Sigh... :crying:

Here's the thing--I'm simply looking at it from a completely cold, completely Spock-like standpoint.

But the Nook version would have cost, what, 9.99? And so if Joe gets 1.00 from that, then he has been denied that dollar that by all rights he should have gotten; in my opinion...that's pretty much theft. I mean, if I went into Walmart and (bear with me here) somehow copied one of the blu-rays they have on displayed and then left the store, though Walmart has not lost anything physical, they've lost potential cash flow. It's the same thing. Again, I don't think it makes anyone a bad person. I don't think it makes me a bad person. And I'm sure Joe Abercrombie is much happier with the $3.50 he got off the book sale than the $1.00 he would have gotten off the Nook sale. But...yeah...

But there is no Nook e-version that exists. You can't buy it. At all. So, how can I steal something that doesn't really exist?

[Mr. E]

But there is no Nook e-version that exists. You can't buy it. At all. So, how can I steal something that doesn't really exist?

My brain just collapsed.

Anyway, I think I would call you the rarest of exceptions, MisterOJ. Like a pink elephant. I mean how many people who have downloaded the book have gone out and bought the paper copy?

In fact...a situation like that is probably more clear cut. With the digital thing you could make the argument (flawed and inaccurate as I think it is) that you're just "making a copy." But whoever put the downloadable version of a paper book--I mean, he must have literally copied the book from the physical copy, right? Which is pretty blatantly illegal; and so Joe's losing even more money because except for you, I highly doubt anyone else is getting the physical copy along with the bootleg.

[MisterOJ]

My brain just collapsed.

Anyway, I think I would call you the rarest of exceptions, MisterOJ. Like a pink elephant. I mean how many people who have downloaded the book have gone out and bought the paper copy?

In fact...a situation like that is probably more clear cut. With the digital thing you could make the argument (flawed and inaccurate as I think it is) that you're just "making a copy." But whoever put the downloadable version of a paper book--I mean, he must have literally copied the book from the physical copy, right? Which is pretty blatantly illegal; and so Joe's losing even more money because except for you, I highly doubt anyone else is getting the physical copy along with the bootleg.

No idea where the illegal copy came from. It's available for the Kindle through Amazon, but not through B&N for the Nook. I imagine someone must've gotten one of those copies and stripped the DRM from it and then made it available over the Internet.

But, I don't think I am that rare of a person really. If I like something, I pay for it. I waited literally a year for the Abercrombie trilogy to come out as a e-books for the Nook. His subsequent books are available. I bought and read Best Served Cold on my Nook and liked it. I wanted to read the original trilogy before reading the others though. So, I waited and waited. And then I just decided to buy the hard copy and download a pirated version so I could read it on my Nook.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

MisterOJ,

If you own the physical book I think, for a very small fee, you should be entitled to a digital copy. That still ignores the problem of the ease of copying created by digital media that is only going to ge worse as more people read the way you do.

[Shryke]

MisterOJ,

If you own the physical book I think, for a very small fee, you should be entitled to a digital copy. That still ignores the problem of the ease of copying created by digital media that is only going to ge worse as more people read the way you do.

I thought about this for awhile a few years back and realised the big problem here is books don't have anything that could act as a serial key or the like to prove you've bought the book.

You'd need to set up some sort of crazy system with every major retailer or something.

[MisterOJ]

MisterOJ,

If you own the physical book I think, for a very small fee, you should be entitled to a digital copy. That still ignores the problem of the ease of copying created by digital media that is only going to ge worse as more people read the way you do.

Here's the thing though... I didn't even want the physical copy. I just wanted to read it on my Nook. I just bought a physical copy before downloading the "illegal" copy because that seemed like the right thing to do.

I think these discussions are interesting. I think the pirate download sites are both good and bad. I'm not sure if they're more bad than good or not though. If I had not realized I could download a copy of Abercrombie's book from them, I probably would not have bought a physical copy. Now, Mr. E seems to think that makes me an exception, but I don't think so.

And here's the other thing about DRM. (Which is a different issue, but related.) I bought an ebook copy of World War Z for my Nook. I read it and told my wife about it. She wanted to read it. Except, the only way she can "legally" do that is if I give her my Nook. That seemed silly to me. So I researched how to strip the DRM off my copy of World War Z and then loaded it on her Nook. It was simply and easy. And technically illegal, probably.

But you know what, I don't feel like I did anything wrong. But I'm sure there are some that would disagree. And that's okay.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

MisterOJ,

In my opinion you did something wrong with your digital copy of WWZ. You made a new copy. If you loaned your wife your Nook or your physical copy of the book, no problem. You didn't do that, you made a new copy without Max Brooks' permission. As digital media becomes more pervasive actions like yours will be more and more problematic. What I think you should be able to do is loan your copy from your eReader to someone elses eReader but you no longer have a copy (as if you had loaned your physical copy) on your Nook until it is returned.

[TrackerNeil]

And here's the other thing about DRM. (Which is a different issue, but related.) I bought an ebook copy of World War Z for my Nook. I read it and told my wife about it. She wanted to read it. Except, the only way she can "legally" do that is if I give her my Nook. That seemed silly to me. So I researched how to strip the DRM off my copy of World War Z and then loaded it on her Nook. It was simply and easy. And technically illegal, probably.

But you know what, I don't feel like I did anything wrong. But I'm sure there are some that would disagree. And that's okay.

It's not "technically illegal"; it's illegal. You did it because you felt silly taking legal action to share your copy of the book, but let's call what you did by its true name. Just plain Illegal. You don't have to feel guilty about it - no one can force you - but dissembling about it just seems weird.

[3CityApache]

MisterOJ,

In my opinion you did something wrong with your digital copy of WWZ. You made a new copy. If you loaned your wife your Nook or your physical copy of the book, no problem. You didn't do that, you made a new copy without Max Brooks' permission. As digital media becomes more pervasive actions like yours will be more and more problematic. What I think you should be able to do is loan your copy from your eReader to someone elses eReader but you no longer have a copy (as if you had loaned your physical copy) on your Nook until it is returned.

Well, I think we (and I mean law makers as well) have to face and accept the fact, that you just can't loan the digital copy the same way you do with a physical one, because it's simply ridiculous. I see nothing wrong with what Mister OJ has done, because he made another copy just for convenience. I agree you should be able to loan a book from one eReader to another, but as it is technically impossible, he just made it possible, no harm done. As for not having a copy on your reader until it's returned I'm fine with that, as long as they figure out how to do that, but until they do, what Mister OJ has done should be possible, cos it's much closer to the whole "loaning" idea than necessity to switch readers.

[Tehol]

why ebooks are expensive?

i was browsing on amazon and price difference between hardcover and kindle version of some books are so little that i can't justify buying an ebook. for example compare the recent jim butcher book on amazon.

as i understand ebooks are your privilege to read but you don't own them, amazon or any digital delivery service can cut you off but physical books you own them. ebooks should be cheaper compare to physical books.

any things that i want to own, first thing cross my mind is how much it 's going to cost me; what i am getting for the amount i am parting with. all these pros about e reader do this and that means very little to me if ebooks are expensive. and the argument about buying ebooks authors gets more money just made me laugh.if making lots money is your goal then you have no business being a writer, not every writer can have harry potter success; better be an investment banker or lawyer :P

ignore my rant about ebooks are expensive issue if it is already discussed. i only read first two pages of this thread and jumped in, that should teach me not to butt in middlle of things.

[PaulineMRoss]

It's not "technically illegal"; it's illegal. You did it because you felt silly taking legal action to share your copy of the book, but let's call what you did by its true name. Just plain Illegal. You don't have to feel guilty about it - no one can force you - but dissembling about it just seems weird.

The legal situation is a lot greyer than that. It depends what country you're in, for instance. In some countries any kind of copying of electronic media is illegal, but there are also countries where copying and/or converting to a different format for personal use only is expressly permitted in law. Stripping the DRM is forbidden under Amazon’s terms and conditions; however, there are some countries where businesses are not allowed to impose terms and conditions which would breach or restrict customers’ rights in law. Regardless of the above, virtually no legal action has ever been taken against copying, and where it has, it has always been against those copying on a large scale, or making such copies widely available, or facilitating such copying or distribution. No action has ever been taken against an individual copying for personal use (so far as I know). There is also the oddball arrangement of Amazon's allowing downloads of ebooks to multiple devices registered to the same account. If several people all register their Kindles to a single account, they can all download the same book. So copying a book to a friend's Kindle (or Nook!) is only a slight variation on that.

Ultimately, it's up to everyone to decide for themselves whether DRM-stripping or copying or downloading a pirate version is legal or illegal-but-tolerated or outright illegal in their country and in that particular instance. It's not helpful to make blanket black and white statements about a subject which is exceptionally murky.

My view is that the vast majority of people want to keep within the law. They will buy legal copies if they are available and they can afford it, and only consider downloading pirate copies otherwise. They take copies of their own ebooks for backup purposes or to loan to a small number of friends or relatives who wouldn't otherwise buy the book anyway. I suspect there are very few people who won't pay for ebooks on principle.

[Melonica Stormborn]

I said this in an old thread before, I usually buy a hard copy then download an ebook version if I decided that I need one to easily search passages etc. I don't see a problem with this because I already paid for the contents of the book. However, if publishers can make a way for paper book buyers to get access to an ebook copy legally (the old thread has some good suggestions), that would be much preferrable.

The problem for me is doing it backwards (download first then buy later). I don't begrudge our Croatian board member since it's only for personal use and he has an acceptable reason for doing so (and we've all done it at some point), I just don't see why the issue should be whitewashed.

Comparing it with going to the movies doesn't make sense to me since when one goes to the cinema it is understood that one pays for one-time viewing. DVDs and blu ray are somewhat closer, since you get to own the contents of the discs much like owning a book.