Heresy 30

[Angalin]

Well, then.

[Black Crow]

I think we've been noticed...

Welcome to Heresy 30

While it’s a significant milestone in itself, we’re also just two days away from the first anniversary of opening the thread as The Wall, The Watch and a Heresy on November 29 2011. It became clear in the course of that first thread that the heretical notion there was something odd about the Starks had legs, and so the continuation thread was labelled Heresy 2 and has never looked back.

So thank you, so very very much, to all who have contributed to the thread over the past year. I’ve enjoyed the company and its been quite a ride, which has genuinely advanced our understanding of what’s really going on, not least by identifying the folklore sources being drawn upon by GRRM.

So why Heresy?

As GRRM himself said in a recent interview:

…it was always my intention: to play with the reader’s expectations. Before I was a writer I was a voracious reader and I am still, and I have read many, many books with very predictable plots. As a reader, what I seek is a book that delights and surprises me. I want to not know what is gonna happen. For me, that’s the essence of storytelling and for this reason I want my readers to turn the pages with increasing fever: to know what happens next. There are a lot of expectations, mainly in the fantasy genre, which you have the hero and he is the chosen one, and he is always protected by his destiny. I didn’t want it for my books.

Doubting as we all do that the story will end with Jon recognised as both Azor Ahai and the rightful king of Westeros, marrying Dany and riding dragons with her to victory over the Others, using knowledge granted to Bran by the Children, probably doesn’t constitute blasphemy so far as most readers are concerned. However the question as to whether the dragons will save Westeros from the Others or whether the Others will save Westeros from the dragons is a different matter entirely. Nevertheless we now have GRRM’s statement that the Others are “not dead”, and his admission of a link to the Children; something that was also said very explicitly (twice) by the late Qhorin Halfhand way back in Clash of Kings:

"The cold winds are rising. Mormont feared as much. Benjen Stark felt it as well. Dead men walk and the trees have eyes again. Why should we balk at wargs and giants? …Tell Mormont what Jon saw, and how. Tell him that the old powers are waking, that he faces giants and wargs and worse. Tell him that the trees have eyes again"

But then there’s more. This is after Qhorin has insisted on taking Jon with him into the wilderness despite his lack of experience, because the power of the Old Gods is strong; the gods “of the First Men – and the Starks”, which clearly implies there’s something more to the Starks than their warging ability.

Here we really do step into the realms of heresy, questioning whether there is indeed a link between the Starks and the old powers awakening beyond the Wall, questioning the true significance of the Night’s King story which involves sacrifice to the Others, just as Craster does; not killing but giving up his sons to become White Walkers, and looking too at the significance of Bael the Bard and his changeling son; a story unmistakeably derived from the Scottish folk tale of Tam Lin and so opening the intriguing suggestion that Faerie provides a model for those old powers.

Because to end, for this post at least, there are many other nods to Faerie, from the explicit such as GRRM’s own description of the Others as looking like the Sidhe made of ice, and the less than subtle clue planted in the naming of Ser Guyard Morrigen and his crow sigil, pointing to the true identity of the Three-eyed Crow not as an avatar of the dead man in the tree, but revealing it as the Morrigan and a player in its own right.

In short, in these pages we look closely at the Game of Ice and Fire.

Its unorthodox, certainly, but unlike crackpottery the heresies discussed here are very firmly rooted in the text and the sources of that text and in particular Celtic folklore, including the Mabinogion and the Tain bo Cuailnge, and the Norse eddas.

We question lots of things, ranging from the timelines to the building of the Wall, the identity of the Others and whether the Children as cuddly as they pretend, but we do, nevertheless argue. As always all we insist upon in this thread is that discussion – and arguments – be conducted with reference to the text, a respect for the opinions of others, and above all with great good humour.

[Black Crow]

And as is customary, previous heresies are linked below for reference, but unless it’s a particularly dreary night outside and you have an intravenous coffee supply set up, I’d recommend you just stick to Heresy 6, which includes a complete and invaluable transcript of Old Nan’s tales, and Heresy 10 where we first discussed GRRM’s email comparing the Others to an icy version of the Sidhe, and what we found when we looked into them. Otherwise just dive straight in to the current thread and we’ll be happy to explain what has gone before…

Heresy five (with links to earlier heresies),

Heresy six, (inc. the complete Old Nan’s Tales)

Heresy seven,

Heresy eight,

Heresy nine,

Heresy ten, (with the introduction of the Sidhe)

Heresy eleven,

heresy twelve

heresy thirteen

http://asoiaf.wester...8801-heresy-14/

http://asoiaf.wester...9643-heresy-15/

http://asoiaf.wester...0033-heresy-16/

http://asoiaf.wester...0554-heresy-17/

http://asoiaf.wester...0972-heresy-18/

http://asoiaf.wester...1492-heresy-19/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/71971-heresy-20/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/72274-heresy-21/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/74304-heresy-23/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/74991-heresy-24/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/75530-heresy-25/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/75895-heresy-26/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/76163-heresy-27/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/76591-heresy-28/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/77004-heresy-29/

[Melifeather]

I have enjoyed reading and participating in the many Heresy threads, and I've learned so much from everyone here. You've corrected me on my assumptions, pointed out any contradictions, and you've inspired me to create a possible, theoretical story that encompasses many of the ideas first read here on this thread:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/77369-the-trueborn-story-about-how-the-nights-king-was-overthrown-and-winterfell-stolen-by-a-bastard/#entry3850438

[Little Wing]

Congrats Black Crow and everyone involved - this is truly a thread worth being on these forums for and is always an enjoyable read as well as great mental gymnastics! :cheers: :commie:

A thought I had today about the CotF - are they meant to resemble, among many other things - pixies? Also, aren't pixies in some sort of enmity with faeries? What do you guys think, has GRRM been influenced by Elementals, also, when creating his world?

[brut]

woohoo, 30! crawling resumes.

[Burning One Arise]

Might as well make my foray into these forums in a Heresy Thread ;)

Congrats Black Crow and everyone involved - this is truly a thread worth being on these forums for and is always an enjoyable read as well as great mental gymnastics! :cheers: :commie:

A thought I had today about the CotF - are they meant to resemble, among many other things - pixies? Also, aren't pixies in some sort of enmity with faeries? What do you guys think, has GRRM been influenced by Elementals, also, when creating his world?

I always mentally equated the CotF as a more Elven-type race, long-lived and full of wisdom.

As for Elementals, one could definitely make that argument.

Earth = Children of the Forest maybe?

Water = Others? (Frozen and icy)

Wind = Dragons (they fly)

Fire = Rhollor (definitely the easiest to argue for)

Aether = ?

[Melifeather]

Aether also sounds like "others".

I think we all agree that GRRM has many inspirational sources.

[Tyryan Lannister]

@ Feather crystal: While I am fully in favor of a shortened, abridged timeline, I'm not in favor of one that is THAT abridged... i think that at least when they are speaking historical record wise of something being 1000 years ago, that it is indeed somewhere between 800-1200 years ago

[Melifeather]

@ Feather crystal: While I am fully in favor of a shortened, abridged timeline, I'm not in favor of one that is THAT abridged... i think that at least when they are speaking historical record wise of something being 1000 years ago, that it is indeed somewhere between 800-1200 years ago

I am beginning to think that the Andals came at the same time as Aegon the Conqueror. They're just a fanatical, militant group similar to the Faith Militant that is gathering in Kings Landing.

[Black Crow]

Might as well make my foray into these forums in a Heresy Thread ;)

I always mentally equated the CotF as a more Elven-type race, long-lived and full of wisdom.

As for Elementals, one could definitely make that argument.

Earth = Children of the Forest maybe?

Water = Others? (Frozen and icy)

Wind = Dragons (they fly)

Fire = Rhollor (definitely the easiest to argue for)

Aether = ?

Yes... quite some time back we had figured out that the Children were a Faerie race, not corresponding exactly to any one race, but definitely Faerrie. As to the elementals again, while influenced by them GRRM has put his own spin on them with that triple oath sworn by the Reeds:

Earth and Water

Bronze and Iron

Ice and Fire

Earth being the Children, Bronze being the First Men and Ice being our friends in the North. Water presumably equates to the Drowned God and the Ironborn, Iron itself is the Andals and Fire...

The point being that when paired and in harmony all is well, but if separated Water, Iron and Fire represent chaos

[Black Crow]

I am beginning to think that the Andals came at the same time as Aegon the Conqueror. They're just a fanatical, militant group similar to the Faith Militant that is gathering in Kings Landing.

No, we have to disagree here. Although there's plenty of evidence the Andals first turned up no more than 2,000 years, rather than 6,000 yeas ago there's no doubt at all that they came, saw, conquered and established themselves in the kingdoms long before Aegon arrived.

[Little Wing]

Welcome to the forum and the Heresy thread Burning One Arise!

The Elementals are a fun way to look at some things in AsoIaF, I guess - nothing new, I know, just thought I'd mention them too.

[Melifeather]

No, we have to disagree here. Although there's plenty of evidence the Andals first turned up no more than 2,000 years, rather than 6,000 yeas ago there's no doubt at all that they came, saw, conquered and established themselves in the kingdoms long before Aegon arrived.

Why is it that there isn't any record of the Andals fighting the Targaryens? There must have been no objections. Or, the Andals could have been sent as a first wave, so to speak.

[Tyryan Lannister]

Yes... quite some time back we had figured out that the Children were a Faerie race, not corresponding exactly to any one race, but definitely Faerrie. As to the elementals again, while influenced by them GRRM has put his own spin on them with that triple oath sworn by the Reeds:

Earth and Water

Bronze and Iron

Ice and Fire

Earth being the Children, Bronze being the First Men and Ice being our friends in the North. Water presumably equates to the Drowned God and the Ironborn, Iron itself is the Andals and Fire...

The point being that when paired and in harmony all is well, but if separated Water, Iron and Fire represent chaos

Within the Faerie folklore, does Bronze have a magical enhancing property opposing the fact that Iron is supposed to be a magic suppressant? just trying to figure out exactly how Bronze is an equal but opposite to Iron like Fire/Ice and Earth/Water

[alienarea]

Might as well make my foray into these forums in a Heresy Thread ;)

I always mentally equated the CotF as a more Elven-type race, long-lived and full of wisdom.

As for Elementals, one could definitely make that argument.

Earth = Children of the Forest maybe?

Water = Others? (Frozen and icy)

Wind = Dragons (they fly)

Fire = Rhollor (definitely the easiest to argue for)

Aether = ?

Dragons are fire made flesh. They are not wind.

[Tyryan Lannister]

Why is it that there isn't any record of the Andals fighting the Targaryens? There must have been no objections. Or, the Andals could have been sent as a first wave, so to speak.

What do you mean no record? The Arryns fought them, the Lannisters we're going to fight them, but then the Field of Fire occurred, both the Durrendons and the Gardners fought and were destroyed by them, the Martells fought and fought (and fought and fought and fought) them. The Arryns and Lannisters are unabashedly Andal, the Durrendons and Gardners are Andals who married into the First Men families, but ruled as Andals, and the Martells are basically equal parts Andal and Rhoynish.

ETA: Martin has also confirmed in an SSM from this past summer that the Andals arrived en masse to Westeros because they were fleeing the Targs, and that the Rhoynish followed them a few centuries later.

[Black Crow]

Why is it that there isn't any record of the Andals fighting the Targaryens? There must have been no objections. Or, the Andals could have been sent as a first wave, so to speak.

Er... Field of Fire?

[Drapetes]

In the last thread there was some discussion about how the Manderlys are Andals. But is that really the case? They descend from Andal refugees that were driven from the Reach and they worship the Seven, yes. But since then, around 1,300 have passed(according to canon). And it seems that since then, they have inter-married almost exclusively with Northern nobles, i.e First Men. By now, it would seem they have a very tiny amount of Andal blood left in them.

For example, we do not know who Wyman Manderly's parents were. We do not know who his wife was. But we know of 2 Manderly spouses: Donella Manderly's husband, a Hornwood(noble Northern house) and Wylis Manderly's wife(Wylis is Wyman's eldest son and heir), Leona Woolfield(another noble Northern house).

I think that before Aegon and his sisters unified all the kingdoms, marriage between nobles of different kingdoms was not as common as during the events of the novels. Especially marriage between Northern houses and Southern houses, due to the North's relative isolation from the rest of Westeros(due to geographical issues and cultural-religious also), must have been very rare. So I think it's safe to say that the Manderlys of A Song of Ice and Fire are, by blood, mostly First Men.

[Little Wing]

I was just about to ask if you were re-writing the books or something... nevermind saying the Mormonts worship the Seven, but saying the Andals haven't fought the Targs... imagination running wild!