Family trees

[Señor de la Tormenta]

If you believe that the text supports yet another family tree, describe it fully and completely here, and I'll add it in.

well, the app says Eldon is Stannis great uncle. However, why a brother would inheritate before all Cassanas offspring?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Okay, I've gathered the quotes (I think I've got them all, but if I've missed one, let me know):

aCoK & aSoS give the following tree:

- Lord Estermont (first name unknown), an ancient man
- - Cassana, Lord Estermonts daughter, married to Steffon Baratheon
- - - Robert Baratheon
- - - Stannis Baratheon
- - - Renly Baratheon
- - Lomas Estermont
- - - Andrew, Lomas' son
- - Eldon Estermont, an man of 70
- - - Aemon Estermont, Eldon's son
- - - - Alyn Estermont, Aemon's son

A Feast for Crows fits into this tree as well, if the following is assumed: before Arianne Martells Queenmaking attempt, Lord Estermont dies, and Eldon inherits, going from Ser Eldon to Lord Eldon. When Eldon marries Sylva, he's already Lord Estermont

This would fit since it is known that Cassana had two brothers (in this tree they are Eldon and Lomas

Quotes giving this tree:

a

CoK
“If we storm these walls thousands will die,” fretted ancient Lord Estermont, who was the king’s grandfather on his mother’s side.

STANNIS BARATHEON, the First of His Name, the older of King Robert’s brothers, formerly Lord of Dragonstone, secondborn son of Lord Steffon Baratheon and Lady Cassana of House Estermont,
-his wife, LADY SELYSE of House Florent,
-SHIREEN, their only child, a girl of ten,
-his uncle and cousins:
-SER LOMAS ESTERMONT, an uncle,
-his son, SER ANDREW ESTERMONT, a cousin

RENLY BARATHEON, the First of His Name, the younger of King Robert’s brothers, formerly Lord of Storm’s End, thirdborn son of Lord Steffon Baratheon and Lady Cassana of House Estermont,
-his new bride, LADY MARGAERY of House Tyrell, a maid of fifteen years,
-his uncle and cousins:
-SER ELDON ESTERMONT, an uncle,
-Ser Eldon’s son, SER AEMON ESTERMONT, a cousin,
-Ser Aemon’s son, SER ALYN ESTERMONT

aSoS
"Even Lord Estermont, my own mother’s father, has bent his knee to Joffrey."
Ser Andrew Estermont was the king’s cousin, and had served as his squire years ago.


- [Joffrey's] father’s brother, (RENLY BARATHEON), rebel Lord of Storm’s End, murdered in the midst of his army,
- his grandmother’s brother, SER ELDON ESTERMONT,
- Ser Eldon’s son, SER AEMON ESTERMONT,
- Ser Aemon’s son, SER ALYN ESTERMONT,

[stannis]his knights and sworn swords,
-SER LOMAS ESTERMONT, the king’s maternal uncle,
- his son, SER ANDREW ESTERMONT,

aFfC
“the daughter of the Knight of Spottswood was betrothed quite unexpectedly to Lord Estermont,
Lord Estermont—”
“—must be seventy. I am aware of that.” The Estermonts were her good-kin through Robert, whose father had taken one of them to wife in what must have been a fit of lust or madness. By the time Cersei wed the king, Robert’s lady mother was long dead, though both of her brothers had turned up for the wedding and stayed for half a year. Robert had later insisted on returning the courtesy with a visit to Estermont, a mountainous little island off Cape Wrath. The dank and dismal fortnight Cersei spent at Greenstone, the seat of House Estermont, was the longest of her young life. Jaime dubbed the castle “Greenshit” at first sight, and soon had Cersei doing it too. Elsewise she passed her days watching her royal husband hawk, hunt, and drink with his uncles, and bludgeon various male cousins senseless in Greenshit’s yard.
“Eldon Estermont has taken a wife fifty years his junior,” she said to Qyburn. “Why should that concern me?”

—SER ANDREW ESTERMONT, King Stannis’s cousin, a king’s man, commanding Edric’s escort


—ELDON ESTERMONT, Lord of Greenstone, uncle to King Stannis, great uncle to King Tommen, a cautious friend to both,
—SER AEMON, Lord Eldon’s son and heir, with King Tommen in King’s Landing,
—SER ALYN, Ser Aemon’s son, likewise with King Tommen in King’s Landing,
—SER LOMAS, brother of Lord Eldon, uncle and supporter of King Stannis, at Storm’s End,
—SER ANDREW, Ser Lomas’s son, protecting Edric Storm upon the narrow sea,

A Dance with Dragons gives the following though (and fits with the information from the app, as given by Señor de la Tormenta):

- Lord Estermont
- - Cassana Estermont, his daughter
- - - Robert Baratheon, Cassana's son
- - - Stannis Baratheon, Cassana's second son
- - - Renly Baratheon, Cassana's third son
- Lord Eldon Estermont, brother to Lord Estermont, who inherits Estermont at an unknown moment in time
- - Aemon, Eldon's son
- - - Alyn, Aemon's son
- - Lomas, Eldon's second son
- - - Andrew, Lomas' son

Quotes for this tree:

—EDRIC STORM, his acknowledged bastard son by Lady Delena of House Florent, hiding in Lys,

—SER ANDREW ESTERMONT, his cousin and guardian,

—[Robert Baratheons] other kin:

—his great-uncle, SER ELDON ESTERMONT, Lord of Green-stone,

—his cousin, SER AEMON ESTERMONT, Eldon’s son,

—his cousin, SER ALYN ESTERMONT, Aemon’s son,

—his cousin, SER LOMAS ESTERMONT, Eldon’s son,

—his cousin, SER ANDREW ESTERMONT, Lomas’s son,

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

The Great-Uncle debacle ( :) ) has been edited into the page with it's own family tree

[Hardstone]

The Estermonts might aswell be the Summerhall of Family Trees! Maybe they are more incestuous than the Targaryens...

[Nittanian]

Good work again, Rhaenys! I added some referencing to the theories page. For the third option, perhaps Cassana should have two unnamed brothers?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Good work again, Rhaenys! I added some referencing to the theories page. For the third option, perhaps Cassana should have two unnamed brothers?

Thank you!

O damn, forgot about her brothers.. I'll put them in the tree :)

Thank you for editing in the references. I discovered what went wrong when I was creating the page, btw.. That won't happen again :)

Edit: There. The missing brothers have been placed in as well :)

[Batbob45]

They need to add the Character relationship in detail for each family.

[Nittanian]

The A Song of Ice and Fire Campaign Guide is the supplement to the Green Ronin RPG. It was published in 2012, but has some information that is out of date based on newer works (like the app and TWOIAF). Its information is as of the start of AGOT, so Robert, Ned, etc. are still alive.

The guide's entry on House Estermont states "Cassana's ancient brother, Eldon Estermont, remains Lord of Greenstone. Stannis counts Ser Lomas Estermont and his son Ser Andrew as part of his entourage at Dragonstone and King's Landing. Before becoming a knight, Andrew served Stannis as his squire. Other members of the family include Ser Aemon, cousin to Eldron [sic], and Aemon's son, Ser Alyn."

The wiki considers this a semi-canon source. This info could conceivably depict a fourth tree with Eldon as lord, Cassana as his sister, and Aemon as their cousin.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Wait, did you mistype, or is there an Eldon and an Eldron according to the RPG?

If a fourth family tree can be made, it should be placed on the page, that's why we made it! :p

[Nittanian]

Wait, did you mistype, or is there an Eldon and an Eldron according to the RPG?

It's a mistake in the guide the second time Eldon is mentioned ("sic" can be used to indicate that an error in quoted text comes from the source).

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

It's a mistake in the guide the second time Eldon is mentioned ("sic" can be used to indicate that an error in quoted text comes from the source).

Ah, alright, I didn't know that :)

So the RPG makes Aemon a cousin, not stating exactly how he is related to the others? Strange.

In any case, any information from the RPGs is semi-canon, while info from the books is canon. If the RPG says something different than the books, the rule is, the books are correct. However, it is strange that this completely different information is stated in an RPG released in 2012. You'd think they would have simply copied a version from the books.

So I think that if a fourth family tree is added to the list, it should be specifically stated that the information for that specific tree comes from a semi-canon source.

[Nittanian]

So I think that if a fourth family tree is added to the list, it should be specifically stated that the information for that specific tree comes from a semi-canon source.

Yep, that makes sense.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I've updated the Whent tree, to be fitting with the book info, and the SSM info.

The explanation I've given is the following:

There is some confusion as to Lady Shella Whent. While George R.R. Martin has confirmed that she is the mother of the "fair maid" during the Tourney at Harrenhal in 281AC. As Oswell Whent is described as the uncle of the "fair maid", this would thus suggest that Shella was not a Whent by birth, but only by marriage, as her husband, Lord Whent, would thus be Oswells brother.

“ Lady Shella Whent was the mother of the "fair maid" at the Harrenhal tournament. Ser Oswell Whent would have been her husband's brother, and therefore uncle to the "fair maid."^[3] ”

However, in A Clash of Kings, it is stated that it was Shella's father who had been the Lord of Harrenhal.

“ You know old Ben Blackthumb? He came here as a boy. Smithed for Lady Whent and her father before her and his father before him, and even for Lord Lothston who held Harrenhal before the Whents.^[5] ”

This suggests that Lady Shella is a Whent by birth.

One possible explanation is that Shella and her late husband (Lord Whent in 281AC) were cousins, and thus both Whents by birth. It would, in that case, have been Shella who would have inherited Harrenhal from her father, as a daughter comes before an uncle (and thus also before a male cousin). As a marriage might lead to House Whent losing Harrenhal (by name at least), it is possible that Shella married her cousin, who, upon Shella inheriting Harrenhal, would become Lord Whent. This way, Harrenhal would remain in the House.

Since it is not uncommon for cousins to get married in Westeros, this seems to be an option.

[Eagle of Seagard]

In this iteration of the family, are you suggesting that the Lord Whent of the False Spring Tourney and the Lord Whent of the Tourney at Lannisport (post-Greyjoy rebellion) are one and the same? If so, this would make him very old at Lannisport (already being described as old by Barristan at Harrenhal's tourney). It could not be one of her sons, as for him to be considered Lord, Shella would have to be dead (as the title apparently comes from her line).

Also, SSMs are overruled by whats in the published works. He may have been considering Shella as the maid's mother when the SSM was recorded (some time ago, I recall), but has since changed his mind as to her position in the tree.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Well, he is called "Old Lord Whent" during that tourney.

Due to the description, and the fact that 289 in Lannisport is only 8 years after 281 at Harrenhal, I think there is a good chance that they are the same person.

I figured it has to be something of the books and SSM both, as Clash had been released a year before the SSM was made..

[Eagle of Seagard]

He is "Old Lord Whent" in Barristan's recollection of the Tourney at Harrenhal, but just "Lord Whent" in Jorah's memory of the Tourney at Lannisport. Jorah doesn't give any more information about him, just that Jorah defeated him. At this stage I would say he would be in his early 70s or so - which I think is probably too old to be fighting, but maybe not to enter a tourney, particularly if it was just for fun and Whent didn't expect to win???

[Eagle of Seagard]

So we have a tree that looks something like this? (Trying to fit in the extended family)

http://s30.postimg.org/e5v9rso9d/Whent.jpg

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

So we have a tree that looks something like this? (Trying to fit in the extended family)

http://s30.postimg.org/e5v9rso9d/Whent.jpg

For Shella, her husband, and Oswell, yeah, I think this is how it is. They will either be first cousins or second cousins.. Though we can't actually put that in the wiki until there is any confirmation, of course :)

Sarya Whent was married to Walder for an unknown amount of time in or between the period of 269AC and 278AC. (Walders youngest child by his fourth wife was born in 269AC the earliest, and Walders eldest child by his sixth wife was born no later than 278AC).

I assume that Walder married a girl around the age of 16 every single time (as we see with his latest wife), so she would have been born (roughly) between 253AC and 262AC.

Minisa would have most likely been born around the time of Hoster, so indeed somewhere roughly around 240AC (as Hoster was born in or between 237AC and 241AC).

For Wynafrei, nothing about her age can be said with certainty, but she cannot be Shella Whent's daughter, since Shella Whent is said to be the "last of her line" in 298AC.. Wynafrei is in the current story (300AC) still alive.

I think the possibility of Wynafrei having been a cousin a bit further removed should not be forgotten.. The Whents with their grand seat might have thought themselves higher as the Freys.

Minisa Whent cannot have been a daughter of the son of Shella's father.. That would mean that Harrenhal would originally have gone to that son, and in the case that said son predeceased Shella's father, Minisa would have received Harrenhal, right?

That Minisa must have been from a main line, seems rather logical. So the possibility that Shella and Minisa were sisters could very much exist, I think.

That Shella had a daughter, "the fair maid", in 281AC, shows that said fair maid was still unwed, and thus perhaps 15 or 16 years old maximally. If Shella had been between 15 and 20 upon getting married, she would have been around 35 to 40 years old in 281AC herself (as it sounds that her four sons were the eldest of the five children).

That would make her around 60 in 298AC, and thus she would qualify as "old".

[Eagle of Seagard]

Woops, I forgot about Shella being the last of her line, and thus having no living kids. So Wynafrei would be further removed from the main line. Seems fitting to be wed to one of Frey's younger descendants.

My reasoning with Minisa's placing was that she would have to be of the main line, to be able to be wed to her (father's) liege lord. As we've seen, titles/lands don't seem to be combined, so when Minisa and Hoster married, her children would hold Riverrun, and as there were others around to take Harrenhal that still had the Whent name, it was passed on to them. I doubt Minisa's father (in this scenario) inherited otherwise we'd've heard of him, so he likely died during the tenure of his father as Lord, but possibly after Minisa had wed. For me, I don't think Minisa and Shella would've been sisters, as when Catelyn thinks of Shella she thinks of 'old Lady Whent', rather than 'aunt Shella' or something similar. That's why I decided to make her a little more removed.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Ah, I see.

Yeah, it is possible, I suppose. She indeed doesn't seem to think of Shella as close family.

I'm hoping that either the World Book, or some bit on the Tully's (if that's even in there) will clear some Whent stuff up. To see how far we got it right :)