Sanderson is done with WoT part 2

[Darth Richard]

To quote a certain President

"Rape is Rape"

[ljkeane]

As for the debate, I likewise am in the "very obviously rape" camp.

Indeed. I'm rather baffled that there's even any question about it. Sex without consent is rape. There's really nothing more to say, how traumatised or not someone is by it is completely irrelevant.

[Frey Pie]

Really im sickened about what some people have just said. Iv never found anything humourous about rape and hate it as one of the vilest thing anyone can do to another person. If i missed the point i apologise, i said a number of times i hadnt read it in a while and even went on to say that perhaps my stance would be different if i read i again with an adults perspective. Obviously seen as so many people have said (and for all yer reasons mentioned) i am incorrect i will concede the point and am indeed wrong. This was the first time id heard about the Mat/Tylin relationship as rape and during my intial read i didnt see it, but then i was a lot younger. Thanks to the people who answered my questions and apologies to anyone iv offended, none of it was intentional

[Darth Richard]

Indeed. I'm rather baffled that there's even any question about it. Sex without consent is rape. There's really nothing more to say, how traumatised or not someone is by it is completely irrelevant.

Go read some amazn threads on Outlander.

And those books are popular with women.

[Maithanet]

Really im sickened about what some people have just said. Iv never found anything humourous about rape and hate it as one of the vilest thing anyone can do to another person. If i missed the point i apologise, i said a number of times i hadnt read it in a while and even went on to say that perhaps my stance would be different if i read i again with an adults perspective. Obviously seen as so many people have said (and for all yer reasons mentioned) i am incorrect i will concede the point and am indeed wrong. This was the first time id heard about the Mat/Tylin relationship as rape and during my intial read i didnt see it, but then i was a lot younger. Thanks to the people who answered my questions and apologies to anyone iv offended, none of it was intentional

Don't feel bad, you are not in any way the only person to have missed this. Yes, I strongly recommend that you reread these chapters (mostly in chapters 28 and 29 of Crown, although there is some relevant stuff before that making clearer the degree of influence Tylin is using to get Mat into bed). I think once you get over the initial titilation of "Mat feels uncomfortable that a woman is so sexually dominant!" it is actually a pretty unsavory scene overall.

[Solmyr]

The author outright admitted. You're fighting a losing battle here.

What the author admitted is that he and his wife (both residents of planet Earth) think of it as rape. He never indicated in any way that the residents of Randland perceive it as rape. To the contrary, we have ample evidence than none of the latter residents perceive it this way.

In conclusion I am not even fighting a battle. It is you, who are trying to extrapolate Earthly social norms to a fictional world.

[Rhom]

What the author admitted is that he and his wife (both residents of planet Earth) think of it as rape. He never indicated in any way that the residents of Randland perceive it as rape. To the contrary, we have ample evidence than none of the latter residents perceive it this way.

In conclusion I am not even fighting a battle. It is you, who are trying to extrapolate Earthly social norms to a fictional world.

Now I'm not even sure this is on topic anymore... are you saying that if a differing culture does not view it as rape, then it is not? Sure, in this case the culture is fictional; but I'm not sure there is a great distinction.

[awesome possum]

In conclusion I am not even fighting a battle.

Ah, so you're just being a troll then. Thanks for the heads up. Maybe you can extrapolate Earthly norms to the Land of Ignore.

[Poobah]

Yes it matters, no it isn't still rape.

Solmyr we are talking about this from a meta-perspective. We're not saying that Mat should have Tylin tried for rape in a randland court. We're not saying that Tylin thought of herself as a rapist (though the vast majority of rapists don't consider themselves to be rapists, because bullshit justification). What happened was a depiction of rape. Sex without consent happened. This is a fact.

Are you going to argue that the women that the Seanchan turn into Damane aren't tortured and brainwashed human beings but are in fact animals because that's the societal norm in Seanchan society? We aren't talking about fucking in-universe norms.

Story: King marries random girl. Girl doesn't want to have sex with him. King rapes girl every night. "Oh but in the setting it's not rape, the husband has a legal right to have sex with his wife, OR WHATEVER." Look at all the fucks I'm not giving. We're not talking about the setting.We're deconstructing the setting!

I am so done with this line of argument. Makes me ashamed of my own fucking gender.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

Solmyr - It's the whole point that Randland residents don't consider it rape. This is why RJ wrote it in this way, as I surmised and Harriet confirmed.

[Darth Richard]

I am so done with this line of argument. Makes me ashamed of my own fucking gender.

This. A thousand times this.

[fionwe1987]

I'm simply going to quote the relevant parts:

It was too much. The woman hounded him, tried to starve him; now she locked them in together like ...

like he did not know what. Lambkin! Those bloody dice were bouncing around in his skull. Besides, he had important business to see to. The dice had never had anything to do with finding something, but.... He reached her in two long strides, seized her arm, and began fumbling in her belt for the keys. "I don't have bloody time for—" His breath froze as the sharp point of her dagger beneath his chin shut his mouth and drove him right up onto his toes.

"Remove your hand," she said coldly. He managed to look down his nose at her face. She was not smiling now. He let go of her arm carefully. She did not lessen the pressure of her blade, though. She shook her head. "Tsk, tsk. I do try to make allowances for you being an outlander, gosling, but since you wish to play roughly.... Hands at your sides. Move." The knifepoint gave a direction. He shuffled backward on tiptoe rather than have his neck sliced.

''What are you going to do?" he mumbled through his teeth. A stretched neck put a strain in his voice. A stretched neck among other things. "Well?" He could try grabbing her wrist; he was quick with his hands.

"What are you going to do?" Quick enough, with the knife already at his throat? That was the question. That, and the one he asked her. If she intended to kill him, a shove of her wrist right there would drive the dagger straight up into his brain. "Will you answer me!" That was not panic in his voice. He was not in a panic.

"Majesty? Tylin?" Well, maybe he was in a bit of a panic, to use her name. You could call any woman in Ebou

Dar "duckling" or "pudding" all day, and she would smile, but use her name before she said you could, and you

found a hotter reception than you would for goosing a strange woman on the street anywhere else. A few kisses

exchanged were never enough for permission, either.

Tylin did not answer, only kept him tiptoeing backward, until suddenly his shoulders bumped against something that stopped him. With that flaming dagger never easing a hair, he could not move his head, but eyes that had been focused on her face darted. They were in the bedchamber, a flower-carved red bedpost hard between his shoulder blades. Why would she bring him... ? His face was suddenly as crimson as the bedpost. No. She could not mean to.... It was not decent! It was not possible!

"You can't do this to me," he mumbled at her, and if his voice was a touch breathy and shrill, he surely

had cause.

"Watch and learn, my kitten," Tylin said, and drew her marriage knife.

When its all said and done, this is his reaction:

Mat put a hand over his eyes and tried very hard not to weep. When he uncovered them, she was gone.

I rest my case.

[Darth Richard]

That's even creepier than I remember.

[fionwe1987]

That's even creepier than I remember.

Its incredibly creepy, and re-reading this, I'm not even sure this was what Harriet meant as the "humorous" part. I think what she was referring to was more this:

"You listen to me! That woman won't take no for an answer; I say no, and she laughs at me. She's starved me, bullied me, chased me down like a stag! She has more hands than any six women I ever met. She threatened to have the serving women undress me if I didn't let her—" Abruptly, what he was saying hit him. And who he was saying it to. He managed to close his mouth before he swallowed a fly. He became very

interested in one of the dark metal ravens inlaid in the haft of the ashandarei, so he would not have to meet her eyes. "What I mean to say is, you don't understand," he muttered. "You have it all backwards." He risked a glance at her under the edge of his hatbrim.

A faint blush crept into her cheeks, but her face became solemn as a marble bust. "It... appears that I may have misunderstood," she said soberly. "That is ... very bad of Tylin." He thought her lips twitched. "Have you considered practicing different smiles in a mirror, Mat?" Startled, he blinked. "What?"

"I have heard reliably that that is what young women do who attract the eyes of kings." Something cracked the sobriety of her voice, and this time her lips definitely twitched. "You might try batting your eyelashes, too." Catching her lower lip with her teeth, she turned away, shoulders shaking, dust-cloak streaming behind as she hurried toward the landing. Before she darted beyond hearing, he heard her chortle something about "a taste of his own medicine."

Elayne's reaction boiled down to "slut got what she deserved", except its now applied to a guy. Its incredibly unfair, but handled in a somewhat humorous way, I guess (at least Mat didn't end up almost crying here). At least, I hope this is what Harriet was referring to. Sadly, we have only a second hand quote, not the original.

[Frey Pie]

I'm simply going to quote the relevant parts:

When its all said and done, this is his reaction:

I rest my case.

Thats a lot different from what i remember, a lot darker.Im not sure how Mat ever got to have feelings for her after. Thanks for the quote. I agree theres nothing humorous whatsoever about this exchange. Think that puts a stop to any argument

I always feel Mat gets hard done by by the main female characters-Nynaeve, Elayne and Egwene. Hes done alot for them but rarely gets the respect he deserves

[Castel]

.Im not sure how Mat ever got to have feelings for her after

If I had a penny for every time someone made this comment about abuse victims I'd be able to buy the moon.

[fionwe1987]

Thats a lot different from what i remember, a lot darker.Im not sure how Mat ever got to have feelings for her after. Thanks for the quote. I agree theres nothing humorous whatsoever about this exchange. Think that puts a stop to any argument

Mat gets feelings for her because its easier to think you're having sex because of some feeling than because you're being forced into it every time. In other words, Stockholm's syndrome. People who get abused waay more than Mat still exhibit it.

I always feel Mat gets hard done by by the main female characters-Nynaeve, Elayne and Egwene. Hes done alot for them but rarely gets the respect he deserves

Yes, and that too is a matter of role reversal. And it isn't just present with Mat.

[Frey Pie]

Mat gets feelings for her because its easier to think you're having sex because of some feeling than because you're being forced into it every time. In other words, Stockholm's syndrome. People who get abused waay more than Mat still exhibit it.

Yes, and that too is a matter of role reversal. And it isn't just present with Mat.

True. This discussion would have been far shorter had i had the books with me to look up the relevant parts.

Its pretty widespread in the books i agree. Yet we see the greatest works can only be done with cooperation between the sexes, and this is what i like to take away. Rand cleansing the taint, his plan for the Last Battle. None of it can be done without cooperation from the Aes Sedai. Lews Therin failed due to not being able to get them working together and caused the Breaking. The EOTW, linking, healing stilling/gentling fully etc.etc all needs this mutual respet and cooperation. Im looking forward to seeing how Rand and Egwene work it out in Memory

[awesome possum]

Thank you fionwe. I've not had my tablet with me or I'd have ended this hours ago.

And while Elayne is humbler later on about it, her immediate reaction is pretty disgusting... unless Mat has been raping barmaids all across Randland and Jordan just couldn't fitt it in.

[awesome possum]

And to hopefully verge onto a new topic, I have quickly rediscovered why the series got the reputation of dragging: because holy crap is it dragging.

I'm only on the second chapter of Path of Daggers. According to my reader the current chapter is 39 pages, and the previous was 45. This one is Elayne, the previous was Aviendha and in the 58 of those 84 pages I've read so far they have gone through a gateway. That's it.

We're introduced and reintroduced to the Aes Sedai, Knitting Circle and Windfinders and the political/social currents running through there. And Avi is freaked out by the gholam but the only actual event accomplished in all those pages is leaving the palace via gateway.

It is... boring.