if the dothraki invaded westeros?

[Guardian of the Lhazareen]

One on one, a Dothraki could defeat a Knight, yes. But a Dothraki army cannot defeat a Westerosi army. Not a chance.

And you mention Varys, but Varys was counting on a most divided Kingdom. Plus, he didn't want Daenerys on the Throne, he wanted Aegon on the Throne. I think Daenerys was merely a catalyst; for all the mess she would bring to Westeros.. Aegon would look like a savior from her.

given that a westerosi army is 10% tops made up of knights, why not? the majority of infantry with leather armour would be cut like butter by an Arkar, many people don't know this but curved blades are far more effective at slashing through armour than londswords.

[NewJeffCT]

Jorah was not a tourney knight, as he says, but he made his living for many years as a sellsword after he fled into exile. You don’t survive for that long as a sellsword if you’re not good.

The infantry of Westeros is not made up of professional soldiers – they’re conscripted peasants. If you go back and read the description of much of Robb’s undefeated army of Northmen, the infantry were butchers, bakers and candlestick makers. Stafford Lannister’s host was “the dregs of Lannisport” and neither Jamie’s nor Tywin’s hosts did well in the field in terms of actual combat, either.

Additionally, the armies of Westeros usually do not fight with all seven kingdoms together – it’s rare for more than two kingdoms to unite together, and even two kingdoms fighting together is rare. If you recall, the Targaryens fought against the Host of the Two Kings (The Rock & The Reach) on the Field of Fire. A Dothraki horde would likely have to fight one army at a time.

And, the Battle of Leignitz shows you what a lightly armored army of horse archers can do against knights and infantry, despite having lesser numbers. That was also not the Mongols’ only victory in Europe, either. The death of the Great Khan may have saved Europe and all their heavily armored knights.

And, just because the Dothraki stubbornly refused to stop charging the Unsullied 400 years ago, doesn’t mean that every Khal would follow the same tactics against infantry.

If Dany led an army of 40,000 Dothraki across the sea (Drogo’s horde at the time), they likely would have been joined by Dorne (maybe another 20,000 to 30,000?) and the Golden Company – another 10,000. Other than the Reach, nobody would be able to match them in the field.

[E-Ro]

The infantry of Westeros is not made up of professional soldiers – they’re conscripted peasants. If you go back and read the description of much of Robb’s undefeated army of Northmen, the infantry were butchers, bakers and candlestick makers. Stafford Lannister’s host was “the dregs of Lannisport” and neither Jamie’s nor Tywin’s hosts did well in the field in terms of actual combat, either.

No, thats incorrect. A common error. But I will explain it in depth. Here are the descriptions of robbs men, as well as tywins.

The karstarks came in on a cold windy morning, bringing three hundred horsemen and near two thousand foot from their castle at karhold. The steel points of their pikes winked in the pale sunlight as the column approched.

Ser wylis and his brother ser wendel followed, leading their levies, near fifteen hundred men: some twenty odd knights and as many squires, two hundred mounted lances, swordsmen, and freeriders, and the rest foot armed with spears, pikes and tridents.

Behind her came ser jared frey, ser hosteen frey, ser danwell frey, and lord walders basterd son ronald rivers, leading a long column of pikemen, rank on rank of shuffling men in blue steel ringmail and silver grey cloaks...

The larger part of the northern host, pikes and archers and great masses of men at arms on foot, remained on the east bank under the command of roose bolton.

His uncle would lead the center. Ser kevan had raised his standerds above the kingsroad. Quivers hanging from their belts, the foot archers arrayed themselves into three long lines to east and west of the road, and stood calmly stringing their bows. Between them pikemen formed squares, behind were rank on rank of men at arms with spear and sword and axe. Three hundred heavy horse surrounded ser kevan and the lords bannermen lefford, lydden and serrett with all their sworn retainers. The right wing was all cavalry, some four thousand men, heavy with the weight of their armor. More then three quarters of the knights were there massed together like a great steel fist. Ser adam Marbrand had the command. Tyrion saw his banner unfurl as his standerd bearer shook it out, a burning tree, arange and smoke. Behind him flew ser flements purple unicorn the brindled boar of crakehall the bantam rooster of swyft, and more. His lord father took place on the hill where he had slept. Around him the resrve assembled, a huge force half mounted and half foot, five thousand strong. Lord tywin almost always chose to command the reserve...

Were the right was a mailed fist of knights and heavy lances the vanguard was made up of the sweepings of the west: mounted archers in leather jerkins, a swarming mass of undisciplined freeriders and sellswords, fieldhands on plow horses armed with scythes and their fathers rusted swords half trained boys from the stews of lannisport, and tyrion and his mountain clansmen.

So from all that we can see the only non proffesional men are the vanguard in tywins force, the smallest portion of his army. The rest are all armed and armoured very well at a quality that would be impossible for most farmers to afford. Also note it says "half trained" when speaking of tywins left, indicating most of the men are in fact trained. Arms and armor in medival times were very expensive, most could not afford them unless they were being paid for service as a retainer. Here is a very helpful link for you to read http://www.wars-of-t...f_the_roses.htm

I hope this helps.

[E-Ro]

The infantry of Westeros is not made up of professional soldiers – they’re conscripted peasants.

Yes, thats how it works. But the word "peasent" does not mean untrained moron. A man that has the means will offer service to his lord in return for favors, land or payment. Its a system known as livery and maintenence.

If you go back and read the description of much of Robb’s undefeated army of Northmen, the infantry were butchers, bakers and candlestick makers.

Once again thats how it works. Those would be the wealthiest of the butchers, bakers, candle makers and farmers. The ones able to buy arms and armor. No one in robbs northern host is fighting with farmtools, and the only ones in tywins army with farmtools are the smallest amount he is using to trick robb. Let me say that there will of course be untrained men in any army, men to do menial labor such as road building, cesspit digging, priests, prostituits etc. But these elements of the army will most likely never see combat unless its an emergency and whoever is in charge needs all the bodies he can get. The problem of course with using untrained men is that they dont stand and fight, they run. As seen by the goldcloaks pressed into service before the bw.

Stafford Lannister’s host was “the dregs of Lannisport”

Yea he was in the proccess of training them. You have to start somewhere after all and most of the lannister retainers were already in the riverlands so they needed new ones. Remeber how they were not being marched into combat and were just camped in the west? Thats becaus they were being trained.

and neither Jamie’s nor Tywin’s hosts did well in the field in terms of actual combat, either.

Not sure what you mean by this, could you please explain?

[Guardian of the Lhazareen]

Jorah was not a tourney knight, as he says, but he made his living for many years as a sellsword after he fled into exile. You don’t survive for that long as a sellsword if you’re not good.

The infantry of Westeros is not made up of professional soldiers – they’re conscripted peasants. If you go back and read the description of much of Robb’s undefeated army of Northmen, the infantry were butchers, bakers and candlestick makers. Stafford Lannister’s host was “the dregs of Lannisport” and neither Jamie’s nor Tywin’s hosts did well in the field in terms of actual combat, either.

Additionally, the armies of Westeros usually do not fight with all seven kingdoms together – it’s rare for more than two kingdoms to unite together, and even two kingdoms fighting together is rare. If you recall, the Targaryens fought against the Host of the Two Kings (The Rock & The Reach) on the Field of Fire. A Dothraki horde would likely have to fight one army at a time.

And, the Battle of Leignitz shows you what a lightly armored army of horse archers can do against knights and infantry, despite having lesser numbers. That was also not the Mongols’ only victory in Europe, either. The death of the Great Khan may have saved Europe and all their heavily armored knights.

And, just because the Dothraki stubbornly refused to stop charging the Unsullied 400 years ago, doesn’t mean that every Khal would follow the same tactics against infantry.

If Dany led an army of 40,000 Dothraki across the sea (Drogo’s horde at the time), they likely would have been joined by Dorne (maybe another 20,000 to 30,000?) and the Golden Company – another 10,000. Other than the Reach, nobody would be able to match them in the field.

I agree with you on all acounts bar one, jorha was a tourney knight, he unhorsed jaime lanister and lanisport.

[Guardian of the Lhazareen]

No, thats incorrect. A common error. But I will explain it in depth. Here are the descriptions of robbs men, as well as tywins.

So from all that we can see the only non proffesional men are the vanguard in tywins force, the smallest portion of his army. The rest are all armed and armoured very well at a quality that would be impossible for most farmers to afford. Also note it says "half trained" when speaking of tywins left, indicating most of the men are in fact trained. Arms and armor in medival times were very expensive, most could not afford them unless they were being paid for service as a retainer. Here is a very helpful link for you to read http://www.wars-of-t...f_the_roses.htm

I hope this helps.

I believe it is you that is confused, the conscripts didn't arm them selves. the lords they fought for provided the weapons, this has always been the case during mobilization, except for the lords who have there own weapons, anyone with a spear or bow or axe and lots of swords men would just be conscripts pulled in from the fields, given weapons and no training then told to fight.

[E-Ro]

the majority of infantry with leather armour would be cut like butter by an Arkar, many people don't know this but curved blades are far more effective at slashing through armour than londswords.

Well most of the westerosi will be using a pole weapon(pike, halberd,glaive,bill,bardiche etc) so they will be able to attack the dothraki and keep them at a distance. And curved swords are better at slashing flesh then longswords, not slashing armor. Actually slashing at armor is usually a bad idea. A man in cloth though will suffer greatly against a curved sword witch is why the dothraki are so good against lamb men.

[E-Ro]

I believe it is you that is confused, the conscripts didn't arm them selves. the lords they fought for provided the weapons, this has always been the case during mobilization, except for the lords who have there own weapons, anyone with a spear or bow or axe and lots of swords men would just be conscripts pulled in from the fields, given weapons and no training then told to fight.

No im afraid you are incorrect. Lords do not keep huge magaizines of arms and armor. Do you have any idea how much that would cost? As well I provided numerous examples of trained westerosi.

half trained boys from the stews of lannisport,

This implies most men in the army are in fact trained, and the untrained element of the army is only half trained.

[The Great Walrus]

Oh gods, someone is debating E-Ro, this can only end in bruises, blood, and broken bones.

[Guardian of the Lhazareen]

yes but as I said the majority of westeros soldiers will be wearing leather that can't stop an arkar. also if you swing a curved blade at plate armour it will do more damadge than a straight blade. this is known

[E-Ro]

Another issue I have with your assumptions of medival armies being untrained hordes of men, is the simple fact that when you press men with no training into battle the first thing they do at any sign of danger is run. The infantry in got perform very well, much better then any untrained group of men.

[The Great Walrus]

yes but as I said the majority of westeros soldiers will be wearing leather that can't stop an arkar. also if you swing a curved blade at plate armour it will do more damadge than a straight blade. this is known

You do realize an arkah is basically an extra sharp, oversized farm tool right?

[Guardian of the Lhazareen]

No im afraid you are incorrect. Lords do not keep huge magaizines of arms and armor. Do you have any idea how much that would cost? As well I provided numerous examples of trained westerosi. This implies most men in the army are in fact trained, and the untrained element of the army is only half trained.

No it implies that the army hasn't recieved full training.

[E-Ro]

yes but as I said the majority of westeros soldiers will be wearing leather that can't stop an arkar.

Thats true, a padded jack will most likely not hold against a good swing.

also if you swing a curved blade at plate armour it will do more damadge than a straight blade. this is known

No it is not known. Slashing at plate will do more damage to your sword then to the plate, against plate the more important factor is weight and force of the blow. So since a curved sword is lighter then a longsword you would do less damage.

[Guardian of the Lhazareen]

You do realize an arkah is basically an extra sharp, oversized farm tool right?

Nope, if you are refering to a syth, that is sharp on the inside bit of the blade, arkars are sharp on the outside bit. also it is a weapon of war, this is like me saying the manderly guards fight with oversized eating utensils.

[E-Ro]

No it implies that the army hasn't recieved full training.

That is the smallest part of the army though dude, did you read what I posted?

[Frey Pie]

Ahh this again....put simply-no the Dothraki could never conquer Westeros unless backed up by many, many, many allies that dont mind their lawless raping ways

[The Great Walrus]

Ahh this again....put simply-no the Dothraki could never conquer Westeros unless backed up by many, many, many allies that dont mind their lawless raping ways

Exactly, i don't understand why people think these tactless savages could take Westeros.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

yes but as I said the majority of westeros soldiers will be wearing leather that can't stop an arkar. also if you swing a curved blade at plate armour it will do more damadge than a straight blade. this is known

Of course. The arakh will get nicked worse than the longsword while the armor will be fine with purely optical damage. Plate armor is defeated by either warhammers and the like or stabbing your sword through the joints, something that needs a straight blade with a proper point.

No more arguments from me tonight, please visit the last ~100 incarnations of this thread, including the previous pages of this very one or simply listen to E-Ro, Frey Pie and the other usual suspects. They know their stuff.

[Guardian of the Lhazareen]

Thats true, a padded jack will most likely not hold against a good swing.

No it is not known. Slashing at plate will do more damage to your sword then to the plate, against plate the more important factor is weight and force of the blow. So since a curved sword is lighter then a longsword you would do less damage.

OK, last post for me on this topic.

point 1, curved blades such as arkars deliver more damadge to armour when slashing as they can focus the full momentum of the swing and blade on one singular point of the blade, whereas long swords can't, the result of this is that more force is delivered giving the arkar a better chance to cut the armour.

point 2, the karstak foot soldiers, do you realy think that all 2000 of them just had pikes lying around at home, ofcourse not they will have been given them by Richard, this just goes to show that the army was not profesional as they didn't have there own weapons, the same aplies to the rest of the northern foot, the frey levies, edmures army of 16,000 and staford's army, these men simply wouldnt hold against the dothraki screamers who are all experienced killers.

point 3, the advantage of the pike is easily overcome by the superior bow range of the dothraki, especial seen as how pikes are two handed weapons.

point 4, westerosi armies do rout, the gold cloaks did, the northmen at the twins did, boltons men and tywins men and stannis's men did only they did it under controled conditions, this is due to the quality of the generals tho not the differing quality and sycholgy of westerosi armies as opposed to medieval armies, had these abttles gone on then the army would have run in the end just like edmures and staford;s did.

point 5, i did read what you said, all your descriptions of westeros armes just fall into the category of a few knights and profesional soldiers, eg squires reatainers and men at arms, plus guards of the crossing, however the majority are just levies called up when the banners where called and armourd by their lords.

in surmise. Dothraki for the win! :fencing: