Why do people think show Robb is so different from book Robb? possible spoilers!

[jons nissa]

I feel more for Book-Robb because while he was wrong, he was in a way that was at least encouraged by his society, TV-Robb is Book-Robb for today's society, one that more or less assumes that love should conquer and come above all unless told otherwise- and I despise the fact that his actions are supposed to be more sympathetic to me given that he's even more of a selfish douche. Unlike Book Robb he doesn't have the temporary insanity thing going on here.

this! i would go even further and say too many readers forget about a different set of society norms and apply today's society norms to the series. tv robb is definitely meant to appeal to today's society but i also think d & d were eager to have a bit of romance on the show and tv robb had quite a fan base. the hint of being a spy adds more drama and intrigue in an otherwise not so exciting story.

[Frey Pie]

This is really a surprise to you? What about Ned Stark willing to risk the deaths of god knows how many people to protect the life of Dany, who was at best an unknowing bomb aimed at Westeros and at the worst an aspiring queen? He doesn't even consider the smallfolk who will die, just his own honor. What about Robb refusing to end a war that has done nothing but kill people when it's clear that he's more or less lost? When you give nobles unlimited power and people are assets shit like this will happen in war. The TV series at least tried to rationalise it away with the idea that Robb had to continue to fight Joffrey or he wouldn't be safe but even there Talisa calls him on his shit.

No he considers that shes a kid. If you wanna go ahead and murder some children because you think shes going to trouble you later in life go on ahead, but have a look who agrees with you and who agrees with me-you can chill with the oh so good LF and Renly, and ill sit happy with Barristan. No the TV show made it look like Robb was a shit commander with no grasp of tactics. Your talking about the Starks as if everythings their fault, when everything was started by others-Tywin, Cersei, Varys LF. If you want to point the finger point it at somone who makes sense

Although your right thank the seven for good Amory Lorch and Ser Gregor Clegane and their selfless rape and murder of other dragon kids

[Philip Baratheon]

It's not Robb. Well, it is, but it's how he comes off in respect of his wife. So it's about how he reacts to Jeyne and Talisa.

I think that in both cases he made a terrible mistake and it cost (or will cost, in the TV case) him dearly. The thing is that his marriage to Jeyne gave us an insight into what Robb is like and how he's seen things, which we often miss because we don't have his PoV. Through Jeyne we see that he's, despite his fighting and maturity, still a young man, a boy even. The news about Bran and Rickon shatters him and when he's there in grief with a girl of a similar age to him, one things just leads to another. We also see that he's his father's son in that he choses her honour over his. When Catelyn talks to Jeyne, we get an insight into the massive pressure Robb is under, a much more definite insight than just inferring it from the hard steps he has to take, eg. the Karstark business which he does himself.

The romance with Talisa has none of the mitigating emotional circumstances he had at the Crag (that doesn't make it right, of course) and it makes Robb seem uncaring about his Frey betrothal. When Catelyn reminds him about it, he just brushes her off. All in all, Robb's character feels cheapened. Talisa doesn't really tell us anything interesting about Robb, she's just a pretty lady he falls for, whereas (at least thus far) Jeyne makes Robb a deeper and more intriguing person. She also reminds us that while lots of characters accomplish tremendous feats at young ages, they can still be vulnerable to their lack of maturity.

Also, Robb in the show is hotter.

[Buckwheat]

tv robb is definitely meant to appeal to today's society but i also think d & d were eager to have a bit of romance on the show and tv robb had quite a fan base.

The story should appeal to today's society without being contradicting in itself.

Also, if they wanted more romance in the show (I can agree with that), they could have either expanded the Jeyne story and showed it on screen or, even better, not deleted all the possibilites for romance they had from the books *points to Sansa's story*.

Also, Robb in the show is hotter.

:rofl: I agree with that, but probably because he is older too. I can barely imagine finding a 15 yo guy to be hot to me.

Your post was very good.

[jons nissa]

The story should appeal to today's society without being contradicting in itself.

but it doesn't. in the book, robb is a boy king. practically EVERYONE complains that they can't imagine robb or the other "children" doing what they do in the book and "in my head, they're older." a key element of the story does NOT appeal to today's society (no adolescence and adult expectations the second puberty hits) and people are having an incredibly difficult time with putting the story in the context the author imagined and crafted.

Also, if they wanted more romance in the show (I can agree with that), they could have either expanded the Jeyne story and showed it on screen or, even better, not deleted all the possibilites for romance they had from the books *points to Sansa's story*.

some see sansa's story as a romance, some do not.d & d do not. even the author says it's a situation that should be angsty and creepy. i am almost positive (almost) that there is no way a modern audience will accept tv sandor and tv sansa in a full fledged romance. other actors would havehad to be cast if that was to be.

[Buckwheat]

but it doesn't. in the book, robb is a boy king. practically EVERYONE complains that they can't imagine robb or the other "children" doing what they do in the book and "in my head, they're older." a key element of the story does NOT appeal to today's society (no adolescence and adult expectations the second puberty hits) and people are having an incredibly difficult time with putting the story in the context the author imagined and crafted.

Then it is the problem of the readers/viewers, not a problem with the story. I agree with the aging up change, but this is not what we are talking about. The story should not be altered in the way that most today's viewers will like without straining their brain cells a little. Adjusting the characters' motivation to fit today's norms makes it unrealistic in the setting of the story.

some see sansa's story as a romance, some do not.d & d do not. even the author says it's a situation that should be angsty and creepy. i am almost positive (almost) that there is no way a modern audience will accept tv sandor and tv sansa in a full fledged romance. other actors would havehad to be cast if that was to be.

I do not see it as a romance with flowers and butterflies roaming around either. It is a creepy thing they have with Sandor, but there is also Dontos and they could have showed her dreaming of some pretty knight like Loras too. So they had possibilities of showing something near a romance enough, apparently just not the romance that would appear to modern viewers and not be too controversial. Inventing a bad romcom story instead of that was a bad change because it cheapened the show, the complexity of the story and the characters and everything that makes ASOIAF/GOT different than other shows where they lived happily ever after.

[Little Wing]

... they could have showed her dreaming of some pretty knight like Loras too

I mostly agree with you Buck, but how were they supposed to do this? Are you thinking of a dream sequence like Bran's dreams or what?

[Buckwheat]

I mostly agree with you Buck, but how were they supposed to do this? Are you thinking of a dream sequence like Bran's dreams or what?

Maybe (they showed her dreaming of the day she nearly got raped too), or just showing her follow somebody good-looking in the court or at the tourney with her eyes, or mentioning it to Dontos while blushing.

[Little Wing]

Maybe (they showed her dreaming of the day she nearly got raped too), or just showing her follow somebody good-looking in the court or at the tourney with her eyes, or mentioning it to Dontos while blushing.

Yeah, I guess the tourney scene with Loras was it :dunno: I never read comments of the TV audience alone... I wonder how they see Robb, or Sansa for that matter...

[Buckwheat]

Yeah, I guess the tourney scene with Loras was it :dunno: I never read comments of the TV audience alone... I wonder how they see Robb, or Sansa for that matter...

There is a thread in the show forums that follows and reposts some of the most interesting comments from a viewer-only forum: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/65912-booktv-spoilers-twop-n00bs-thread-ii/, they usually have some interesting thoughts. Though I do not remember any particular comments on them. They probably think Sansa is a side character whose role is solely to be the victim of the evil circumstances. I can imagine opinions on Robb to vary much more.

[jons nissa]

I do not see it as a romance with flowers and butterflies roaming around either. It is a creepy thing they have with Sandor, but there is also Dontos and they could have showed her dreaming of some pretty knight like Loras too. So they had possibilities of showing something near a romance enough, apparently just not the romance that would appear to modern viewers and not be too controversial. Inventing a bad romcom story instead of that was a bad change because it cheapened the show, the complexity of the story and the characters and everything that makes ASOIAF/GOT different than other shows where they lived happily ever after.

robb HAS to marry someone in order for him to default on his promise to marry a frey. why would the writers create a romance for sansa that will go nowhere when there is a character that gets married mysteriously? that makes little sense and is a lot of work for nothing. if a romance had to be created, robb is the easiest and most logical place for d&d to do that.

[Buckwheat]

robb HAS to marry someone in order for him to default on his promise to marry a frey. why would the writers create a romance for sansa that will go nowhere when there is a character that gets married mysteriously? that makes little sense and is a lot of work for nothing. if a romance had to be created, robb is the easiest and most logical place for d&d to do that.

Is romance a story that must necessarily end with a marriage for you? I think what they have shown between Shae and Tyrion is a romance too, and they do not get married. Sansa has romantic stories with pretty much all the make characters she talks to, so it would not be like they are creating anything anew. Also, I do not think that it would not lead anywhere - anything that happens leads somewhere, if there is not a great political complication (making the Freys angry etc.), there is character development which is the most important part of Sansa's story.

Also, why mysteriously? I see nothing mysterious about their marriage.

[jons nissa]

Is romance a story that must necessarily end with a marriage for you? I think what they have shown between Shae and Tyrion is a romance too, and they do not get married. Sansa has romantic stories with pretty much all the make characters she talks to, so it would not be like they are creating anything anew. Also, I do not think that it would not lead anywhere - anything that happens leads somewhere, if there is not a great political complication (making the Freys angry etc.), there is character development which is the most important part of Sansa's story.

Also, why mysteriously? I see nothing mysterious about their marriage.

no, you absolutely don't need a marriage for a romance but i never said you did. i said there was a marriage that had to happen. as a result, that is really the first place one would consider putting a romance. it is mysterious how they come to be since it all happens off screen. we now very very VERY little about them as a couple, so yes, that makes it mysterious.

yes, i think shae and tyrion is an example of a romance. there aren't many though.

[Kittykatknits]

but it doesn't. in the book, robb is a boy king. practically EVERYONE complains that they can't imagine robb or the other "children" doing what they do in the book and "in my head, they're older." a key element of the story does NOT appeal to today's society (no adolescence and adult expectations the second puberty hits) and people are having an incredibly difficult time with putting the story in the context the author imagined and crafted.

some see sansa's story as a romance, some do not.d & d do not. even the author says it's a situation that should be angsty and creepy. i am almost positive (almost) that there is no way a modern audience will accept tv sandor and tv sansa in a full fledged romance. other actors would havehad to be cast if that was to be.

Then it is the problem of the readers/viewers, not a problem with the story. I agree with the aging up change, but this is not what we are talking about. The story should not be altered in the way that most today's viewers will like without straining their brain cells a little. Adjusting the characters' motivation to fit today's norms makes it unrealistic in the setting of the story.

I do not see it as a romance with flowers and butterflies roaming around either. It is a creepy thing they have with Sandor, but there is also Dontos and they could have showed her dreaming of some pretty knight like Loras too. So they had possibilities of showing something near a romance enough, apparently just not the romance that would appear to modern viewers and not be too controversial. Inventing a bad romcom story instead of that was a bad change because it cheapened the show, the complexity of the story and the characters and everything that makes ASOIAF/GOT different than other shows where they lived happily ever after.

I agree with Buckwheat here. I think there is a difference in the use of the word romance and Romance, if that makes sense. Martin, in his books, has quite a bit of Romance. It's heavily present throughout Sansa's story, not just her relationship with Sandor although it certainly fits. I'd say Brienne and Jaime, Lyanna/Rhaeger, Tyrion and Shae, Jon and Ygritte, and even Tyrion and Tysha have a story of Romance to them. Martin avoids the typical approach to relationships and love that we see in most of today's pop culture. His stories are very much about the growth of the relationship no matter how messy, yucky, strange, or unhealthy it may be, and the influence that the relationship can have on character growth. It isn't necessarily about moving the plot forward. None of the relationships about, including Sandor and Sansa, will or are likely to end in wedded bliss and happiness but they are all Romance.

Robb's relationship with Talisa is the exact opposite of what Martin has put in to his story. It's romance with a small "r". Robb meets a sassy woman who talks back to him, he's intrigued, a few scenes of sexual tension, a lovely chat where we learn just great the heroine is (she doesn't like slavery! she wants to work! she thinks war is bad!), followed by a bit of sex. From the first episode to the last of season two, Talisa is the exact same flat character, there is no growth or change. Robb fell in love yet we don't have the conflict and I can't see the tragedy the same way I did in the book. Instead, he broke his oath because he wanted to and he was mad at his mom.

To go back to the Romance element again, it's not just the Talisa/Robb storyline that has thrown in out but the entire season, for the most part. Marg threw off her clothes to seduce Renly, Osha threw off her dress to seduce Theon, and Mel threw off her dress to seduce Stannis. Oh, yeah, and prostitutes. It's all very typical of what we might see elsewhere, Martin is heavily influenced by the Romantic but you wouldn't know that from the show.

At least that's the impression I was left with anyways....

[Buckwheat]

no, you absolutely don't need a marriage for a romance but i never said you did. i said there was a marriage that had to happen. as a result, that is really the first place one would consider putting a romance. it is mysterious how they come to be since it all happens off screen. we now very very VERY little about them as a couple, so yes, that makes it mysterious.

yes, i think shae and tyrion is an example of a romance. there aren't many though.

I got an impression you were implying that in your last post. I did not want to twist your words. Still, I think that the story the show has given us is really bad.

Also, the books tell us everything that needed to be known about their story, I think.

<snip>

I still cannot like for some reason, but I think this post is very good and true.

[Kittykatknits]

I still cannot like for some reason, but I think this post is very good and true.

Running out of likes is the bane of my w.org existence. And thank you.

[The Meeraculous Third Reed]

The captured scout look like Tom Cruise. No wonder he's lost in Westeros

They saw him as little more than collateral.

[1234567]

At least the one good thing about Show!Robb being such a prat is that the Red Wedding will be a great pick me up from the disaster the show will no doubt make of the Tyrion / Sansa wedding the episode before. (Given the hash they have made of her storyline so far, and from filming reports, it sounds like a big departure from the book).

The RW will be the end of having to suffer Robb and JarJar Talisa scenes. It is amazing that JarJar Talisa and Show!Robb have actually got me supporting Show!Roose and thinking the Frey are almost justified in their actions. Also it is a real shame for the actors as they are excellent, but their characters have been seriously altered for the worse.

[Daemul]

Making him older i the show just made his decisions in the book look even more terrible. His age, even though people in Westeros mature much faster, gave him a good excuse to get away with what he did, Show Robb, not so much. He's meant to be a man, were meant to keep our word, not do shit like that. :bang:

[Frey Pie]

At least the one good thing about Show!Robb being such a prat is that the Red Wedding will be a great pick me up from the disaster the show will no doubt make of the Tyrion / Sansa wedding the episode before. (Given the hash they have made of her storyline so far, and from filming reports, it sounds like a big departure from the book).

The RW will be the end of having to suffer Robb and JarJar Talisa scenes. It is amazing that JarJar Talisa and Show!Robb have actually got me supporting Show!Roose and thinking the Frey are almost justified in their actions. Also it is a real shame for the actors as they are excellent, but their characters have been seriously altered for the worse.

I forgot about this. Most people like Robb and were horrified by the RW. Its one of the most shocking moments in the books, but makes them stand out compared to many other works. Yet the show has made Robb so much less than what he was in the books. People were outraged when Ned died in the show. The RW should be far far worse. Will people care now after the butcher of Robbs character??