Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 Soooo Jamie also deserves to not be reformed because he basically killed Bran...in the sense of all his hopes and dreams, i.e. a future he himself chooses willingly. Bran survived because he had plot armor on when he hit the ground. If you also feel this way about Jamie then... :drool: . If not then you are a hypocrite. :fencing:Plot armor? No. It's part of the story. There are people who have survived accidents and become paraplegics... In case you haven't noticed most of the characters in the story loose what is most important to them, Bran, as it happens lost his legs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 Are we any more than the sum of our experiences though? Surely reformation is about guilt and contrition?Where is Theons contrition? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ab aeterno Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 Where is Theons contrition?I'm not sure he is contrite. That was why I made the point about whether he only regrets what he did because it went wrong. Would he still regret it if he had taken WF and eventually become king of the Iron Islands and the North? I don't feel strongly either way at the moment.ie did he realize that what he did was morally wrong (as Lancel seems to have, imo) or does he just regret it because it turned out badly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight Of Winter Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 I believe we can learn a great deal about whether or not Theon is reformed from his WOW spoiler chapter, where's he's definitely not "Reek" anymore. If anyone wants to read said cahpter, here's the link: http://georgerrmartin.com/if-sample.htmlWithout revealing any of the plot, the chapter shows Theon is his element: he's vain, mocking and arrogant. Ramsay's torture may have broken him, but has not definitely improved him. And while he regrets some things he has done, his mindset is still the same as before. And "best" of all - he never shows any regret for the worst thing he's done - killing miller's boys; he's mostly sorry for the fact that Nothrmen don't realize butchered kids were not Starks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 I'm not sure he is contrite. That was why I made the point about whether he only regrets what he did because it went wrong. Would he still regret it if he had taken WF and eventually become king of the Iron Islands and the North? I don't feel strongly either way at the moment.ie did he realize that what he did was morally wrong (as Lancel seems to have, imo) or does he just regret it because it turned out badly.It's the same with Lancel. He only says it's morally wrong because he was disfigured and almost died of his injuries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ab aeterno Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 It's the same with Lancel. He only says it's morally wrong because he was disfigured and almost died of his injuries.Perhaps, or perhaps he became religious because he realized how wrong he was in so much that he did. What would you say someone would have to do in order to be reformed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daphne23 Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 Would he still regret it if he had taken WF and eventually become king of the Iron Islands and the North? I don't feel strongly either way at the moment.Do you mean would he regret it if he had succeeded and then been captured and tortured by Ramsey, or would he regret it had he succeeded? Regarding the latter, the answer is obviously no, but I don't see how that answers the question. I'm definitely not arguing that Theon was inwardly moral from the start and would have eventually become redeemed whatever happened to him. I'm arguing that, given his experiences as Reek, he now thinks differently about a number of important questions, and has more sympathy for the weak. The former scenario is a more interesting what-if, but, after the torture, Theon still seems to have changed his mind on key points of morality e.g. betrayal and turning his cloak, so I think he would still regret some of what he did at Winterfell. As I said above, he still doesn't fully regret his murder of the miller's boys, and I think GRRM will probably use this as a test case for the character. If he can ever put aside the fact that they weren't Bran and Rickon and feel true remorse anyway, we'll know that he truly is a changed man, rather than a part-changed one.I still think 'redeemed' is the wrong word to use though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the Old Black Crowe Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 I expect his ordeal to end with his death, Stannis Baratheon cutting his head off in front of a Weirwood. So no I don't think he'll reform after his ordeal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timzy Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 I think "Broken, Bastard or Crippled Thing" would be more apt.There isn't much he achieved to redeem himself.:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurkhal Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 I do think that Theon is very much reformed after his experience although he has not had a new identity, if that's what people are looking for. Still Theon's no traitor to anyone although he did suffer from the Stockholm Syndrome and having a dickish family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bayard Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 I don't understand some people, who cares what Theon did in his past??? This isn't a topic about redemption, which in any case I think it's impossible for Theon in the eyes of the people of Westeros or even in his opinion of himself. We were asked if he is reformed... and that means if he is now a good guy, if given the choice, he will take the right decision even if it's bad for himself. And no, I don't think he is.We can see this in the sample chapter. HIs arrogance is still there, under a layer of crazy and fear. I think given enough time, if he feels safe and regains some power he will be almost the same person, in the way he behaves at least (mentally... well, he's scarred forever). He thinks about Jeyne Poole, and tells her to keep pretending she is Arya, but that tells us nothing, he has nothing to gain by telling the truth, or nothing to lose by giving her that advice. He doesn't think about telling the Northerners or Stannis about Bran and Rickon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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