alwayswinter Posted December 2, 2012 Share Posted December 2, 2012 Soooo Jamie also deserves to not be reformed because he basically killed Bran...in the sense of all his hopes and dreams, i.e. a future he himself chooses willingly. Bran survived because he had plot armor on when he hit the ground. If you also feel this way about Jamie then... :drool: . If not then you are a hypocrite. :fencing:well, no.....because Bran's not dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raksha the Demon Posted December 2, 2012 Share Posted December 2, 2012 I don't think Theon has reformed, at least not completely. His ordeal has forced him to recognize how massively he screwed up; one of the few times I sympathized with him (in matters not related to having been tortured) was when he thinks that he should have died at Robb's side. He spends most of ADWD feeling sorry for himself (not that he doesn't have anything to feel unhappy about!) rather than trying to figure out how to make amends (or even how to kill Ramsey). Of course, I'm not sure that you could say that Theon was completely sane even in his later appearances. Theon's gone from an arrogant, brutal and foolish boy to a broken man with flashes of self-awareness but no particular rise in courage or penance... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wagshell Posted December 2, 2012 Author Share Posted December 2, 2012 My point was, that if some strange theoretical event happened where Theon was suddenly on top again and had power over other characters, I think he would still be quite nasty. He still has that slightly sneering mocking attitude even when he's strung up on Stannis' wall.He regrets his f*** ups mostly from a selfish point of view, in that they got him into so much trouble, rather than just wishing he hadn't had all of those people killed, because it was at all wrong or treacherous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion of Judah Posted December 2, 2012 Share Posted December 2, 2012 If you count the loss of a few fingers, and a couple toes, and most of his teeth as qualities for reformation then sure, he's reformed alright. :drunk: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scipio Africanus Posted December 2, 2012 Share Posted December 2, 2012 well, no.....because Bran's not dead.No thanks to Jamie. :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starks Revenge Posted December 2, 2012 Share Posted December 2, 2012 Soooo Jamie also deserves to not be reformed because he basically killed Bran...in the sense of all his hopes and dreams, i.e. a future he himself chooses willingly. Bran survived because he had plot armor on when he hit the ground. If you also feel this way about Jamie then... :drool: . If not then you are a hypocrite. :fencing:Well Bran is not dead and Jaimie is now also a cripple. Who's hopes and dreams went with his hand, he isn't a fighter now. It depends on what Jaimie does when/if he finds a Stark, will he take them to safety or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Wing Posted December 2, 2012 Share Posted December 2, 2012 I think you never know with Theon. He's not saying anything about fake Arya or Bran and Rickon being alive...for now, we shall see.I think that if he was torn before about his allegiances, he's not anymore, but terrified and traumatized out of his mind to act upon it... escaping with Jayne may be a sign that he will do something redeeming in the end...dunno, as I said, you never know with Theon... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedBean Posted December 2, 2012 Share Posted December 2, 2012 Theon is the character I feel the most second-hand embarrassment to read about. His dumb decisions aren't made because he's an evil person - he just has too much overconfidence in his meagre abilities, and always bites off more than he can chew in order to "prove" himself. Then when his dumb ideas lead him into hot water and everyone laughs at him, he makes things worse by doing even more dumb things. The best thing for Theon is to learn some humility, and he seems to have learned that (in excess) with Ramsay. I don't think he'll have any more dumb ideas about conquering castles anytime soon, but I'm not sure what he can really do in order to repair the damage to the Starks. Saving Jeyne was a good start, and I think he has reformed, but isn't quite redeemed in my eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarkWard Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 I don't think he's been reformed at all. The one good act he's done since being captured is save Jeyne Poole, and only because he'd rather die from the fall than be tortured. Right now, Theon is in no position to follow his moral compass, granted that he has one. Spent goods, if you will. He will serve from here on only as POV to Stannis' political campaign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter's Knight Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 He's closer to being reformed than Jaime at any rate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ironkiller Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 I don't understand the Theon hate. The man was tortured in a way that the most strongest people on Earth would break. He will carry his torture FOREVER, both physically and psycologically.Isn't that punishment enough for killing two peasant kids? Westerosi people think of him as a kinslayer, but we know he ain't such.I really don't see him helping the ironborn as something bad or morally wrong. Sure, to the northman it certanly was, but he had a tough choice... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frejac Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 I have to agree with those saying broken rather than reformed. He's been constantly tortured and abused for a while now, and the end of ADWD/start of TWOW is the first time he's been out of Ramsay's grasp. I don't believe you can truly say how he's changed and whether or not it's for the better until he has more free agency and the time to act on it. And seeing how things stand with his character at the moment, he may never get that chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daphne23 Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 I think that Theon's story comes closer to being a redemption arc than any other PoV character in the series. Is he 'reformed'? Perhaps that's the wrong word. He can never wipe the slate clean, and he will always have killed those two boys, but he deeply regrets what he did, and I believe he would never do something like that again:"I have done terrible things... betrayed my own, turned my cloak, ordered the death of men who trusted me... but I am no kinslayer." ... They were not my blood, but even so, I never harmed them. The two we killed were just some miller's sons. Theon did not want to think about their mother. He had known the miller's wife for yearsTheon still does not appreciate the full horror of his deed - 'just some miller's sons' - but I think this passage shows that he feels deep regret for most of his actions, and is moving towards true remorse for this worst of his acts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ab aeterno Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 I think that Theon's story comes closer to being a redemption arc than any other PoV character in the series. Is he 'reformed'? Perhaps that's the wrong word. He can never wipe the slate clean, and he will always have killed those two boys, but he deeply regrets what he did, and I believe he would never do something like that again:Theon still does not appreciate the full horror of his deed - 'just some miller's sons' - but I think this passage shows that he feels deep regret for most of his actions, and is moving towards true remorse for this worst of his acts.I think one of the issues is whether he is feeling sorry for himself- he regrets what he did because of what it led to (i.e. his being tortured,)- or whether he truly regrets what he did because betraying Robb and seeking his own power was wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 What about Lancel?Lancel is a religious zealot now, like Damphair. He's not sleeping with Cersei anymore because he is insane for religion and feels guilty about what he did. Theon, on the other hand, he is only sorry that his plans didn't work out and now he's lower than pigshit, instead of being King. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ab aeterno Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 Lancel is a religious zealot now, like Damphair. He's not sleeping with Cersei anymore because he is insane for religion and feels guilty about what he did. Theon, on the other hand, he is only sorry that his plans didn't work out and now he's lower than pigshit, instead of being King.So would you say that Lancel and Damphair are reformed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daphne23 Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 I think one of the issues is whether he is feeling sorry for himself- he regrets what he did because of what it led to (i.e. his being tortured,)- or whether he truly regrets what he did because betraying Robb and seeking his own power was wrong.Theon genuinely wishes that he were dead, and thinks that he ought to have died with Robb. I think he's past feeling sorry for himself, and I think his phrasing indicates a realisation that what he did was morally wrong, not just tactically wrong. But yes, he's not quite there yet, which is why I see this as a redemption arc in progress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 He has paid for his betrayal by having his mind and body broken. IMO he's gonna try to make things right by helping the North in some way; he already has by trying to help fake Arya.Theon does have this acceptance of death in which he will welcome it. If he's allowed to defend the North and die fighting than that would be alright for him. And I think for the story too.He's only helping Jeyne in order to help himself. It's in both of their interests to make sure that Stannis/Roose don't find out that Arya is fake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 So would you say that Lancel and Damphair are reformed?No. They are the same just with a different cause. It wasn't their choice, circumstances made them what they are and circumstances can change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ab aeterno Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 No. They are the same just with a different cause. It wasn't their choice, circumstances made them what they are and circumstances can change.Are we any more than the sum of our experiences though? Surely reformation is about guilt and contrition? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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