Lord Tywin and Shae: an explanation

[A wilding]

That's not remotely clear.

Well, either he deliberately sent Tyrion up the ladder, or he is an incompetent fool.

[TheKitttenGuard]

Except that he had his barracks rape her, while he and Tyrion looked on.

Furthermore, he made no move to silence any of his guardsmen, nor Tysha. He acted in a way that belies discretion.

It is known by people not present. Cersei, who was not present, knows about it. Littlefinger knows about it too, and tells Sansa. The story is not secret.

Doesn't make sense given what we know of Tywin. If Tywin wanted to teach Tyrion a lesson about going against his family, why wasn't it done in front of Tyrion when he was out of his coma? Why wasn't he forced to watch, like with Tysha?

Because even Tywin Lannister attempts to couch his actions in terms of realpolitics. This doesn't mean he's immune from analysis.

I honestly believe he isn't the pragmatist he thinks he is, and he commits many of his nastiest actions out of emotional spite and gratification, rather than necessity. Take the sack of King's Landing, and the murder of Elia, Aegon and Rhaeyns. Here is how Tywin justifies it to Tyrion.

Which seems grizzly, but at least practical. Tywin goes nuclear on the Targaryens because he needs to buy his way onto the winning side.

But wait. The Iron Islands, like the Westerlands, took no part in Robert's Rebellion, and precisely nothing bad happened to them in the aftermath (on the contrary, they were given so much autonomy they were able to rebel a few years later). Maybe it's because the Iron Islands is strategically insignificant compared to Casterly Rock, and Balon Greyjoy didn't have the reputation as Aerys' former Hand.

But wait. The Reach, Dorne, Crownlands, some of Robert's vassals (Grandison, Cafferon, Fell) and some of Jon Arryn's vassals (Grafton), and some of Tully's vassals (Darry, Mooton, Ryger) all took up arms against Robert. What happened to them? Robert pardoned them. All of them. Robert and Jon Arryn did not purge their Houses, or cull their children. In fact, some of them became Robert's friends.

And this wouldn't have been something Tywin couldn't have forseen after the Trident. House Frey suffered no consequences for being late to the Trident. Grandison, Cafferon and Fell's defiance and redemption was well in the past. Barristan Selmy was being treated by Robert's own Maester, so why Tywin Lannister felt he needed to prove his loyalty is less clear.

Unless it wasn't really about Robert. It was about Aerys and Tywin. It was about Aerys wounding Tywin's pride. It was about Aerys stealing Tywin's heir, Jaime. It was about Aerys throwing the offer of Cersei's hand for Rhaegar in Tywin's face. It was about Aerys making a scene at Tywin's wedding.

He's a fantastic character, agreed, but he's a real bastard.

Well, I think you and I differente on what publicly means. Nothing in the books point a wide knowledge of Tyrion marrying a prositute due to would of been an incident alluded to in many ways by various people. Tywin would not need to tell his guardsman great detail just his son been made a fool by a prositute and he needs to be made to have a "sharp lesson". Anything beyond that the guardsman will know not to say too much or Tywin will remind them. Cersei will most likely find outfrom Jaime after Tyrion confided in him. With Littlefinger it is his job to know these things and I am sure Varys knows of this event also, I will not know on details of the how but I am just not surprise because it is within their line of work. Outside of two people knowing and one them is dead, nothing is truely kept secret but I don't think it means it is publicly known or the real "truth" of the incident.

On Alayaya whipping I will just admit a horrible bias. It was one of the few incident for me in the whole series of an adult appearing to look out for Tommen where everywhere else he is viewed in comparison to Joffery or condemn as a wicked abomination. I would of liked Tyrion to be whipped over that stunt. The only thing is that is not Tywin deals with his children. Tywin brings a brickhouse worth of mental, emotional, and psychological abuse yet nothing showing direct physical abuse towards his kids.

Ok, you stated that neither the Greyjoys or the Freys did not get punished for their non-committal and my response will be what were they rewarded with? Tywin may not of suffered no negative consequences but neither would he gotten any true power or say in the New Order. With his action in King Landing and his demonstration of loyalty, Tywin got awarded with marrying his daughter to the new King. If his rational, though utterly brutal, action just so able to enact some personal vengeance for humilating rejection of a marriage proposal and taking away your heir, well that is just a cherry on top in the end. He is truely One Magnificent Bastard.

[danm_999]

Well, I think you and I differente on what publicly means.

Occuring in public basically. Having Tysha raped in a barrack, or shoving Alayaya whipped and naked out of the Red Keep for example.

Nothing in the books point a wide knowledge of Tyrion marrying a prositute due to would of been an incident alluded to in many ways by various people.

I don't know how wide the knowledge is, but the fact that people that weren't present, and that people not of House Lannister know about it, means it isn't a secret. I again say that Tywin took no steps to conceal the incident, he apparently didn't instruct Jaime or Tyrion to say nothing of it (only that Jaime not tell Tyrion that Tysha wasn't a crofter's daughter) and apparently let Tysha wander off to tell whoever she would. When Cersei taunts Tyrion about Tysha, she does so in front of the servants and Kettleblacks (who at this point are hedge knights), so she doesn't really seem that concerned about this secret either.

Ok, you stated that neither the Greyjoys or the Freys did not get punished for their non-committal and my response will be what were they rewarded with? Tywin may not of suffered no negative consequences but neither would he gotten any true power or say in the New Order.

Ah, but Tywin does not justify himself this way. If Tywin had claimed he did it for profit, or greater power, that'd be another story.

But he claims he did it to survive. Furthermore, anybody who takes over Westeros is still going to have to deal with one way or another Tywin, as he is an exceptionally powerful lord. With Lyanna Stark out of the way, Tywin is going to be able to marry Cersei to Robert either way.

With his action in King Landing and his demonstration of loyalty, Tywin got awarded with marrying his daughter to the new King.

Robert tells us in AGoT he married Cersei not because of this incident, but because;

And Cersei … I have Jon Arryn to thank for her. I had no wish to marry after Lyanna was taken from me, but Jon said the realm needed an heir. Cersei Lannister would be a good match, he told me, she would bind Lord Tywin to me should Viserys Targaryen ever try to win back his father’s throne,

Tywin Lannister and Casterly Rock were going to be powerful allies no matter what, and Jon Arryn didn't convince Robert to marry Cersei because Tywin had the Targaryen children murdered. Jon Arryn was against the murder of children.

[Jon Mark Selmy]

Explanation? He was horny.

[TheKitttenGuard]

Occuring in public basically. Having Tysha raped in a barrack, or shoving Alayaya whipped and naked out of the Red Keep for example.

I don't know how wide the knowledge is, but the fact that people that weren't present, and that people not of House Lannister know about it, means it isn't a secret. I again say that Tywin took no steps to conceal the incident, he apparently didn't instruct Jaime or Tyrion to say nothing of it (only that Jaime not tell Tyrion that Tysha wasn't a crofter's daughter) and apparently let Tysha wander off to tell whoever she would. When Cersei taunts Tyrion about Tysha, she does so in front of the servants and Kettleblacks (who at this point are hedge knights), so she doesn't really seem that concerned about this secret either.

Ah, but Tywin does not justify himself this way. If Tywin had claimed he did it for profit, or greater power, that'd be another story.

But he claims he did it to survive. Furthermore, anybody who takes over Westeros is still going to have to deal with one way or another Tywin, as he is an exceptionally powerful lord. With Lyanna Stark out of the way, Tywin is going to be able to marry Cersei to Robert either way.

Robert tells us in AGoT he married Cersei not because of this incident, but because;

Tywin Lannister and Casterly Rock were going to be powerful allies no matter what, and Jon Arryn didn't convince Robert to marry Cersei because Tywin had the Targaryen children murdered. Jon Arryn was against the murder of children.

1. It is still barracks within the Lannister household.

2. Unless their is much public pronouncement of why Alayaya is whipped and naked the reason to the general public is subject to gossip and speculation like the royal children being of incest.

3. Cersei doing in front of servants of the Lannisters and servants learn not to hear. The Kettlebacks could be the way LF found out or he could of known longer. Cersei does not care about propriety especially towards Tyrion. All this goes back to the only sure way to keep a secret is for two people to know and one to be dead. After that you work to make it no more idle and salacious gossip of a very powerful family with nothing much more beyond that.

4. I think being kidnapped and than systematically being gang-raped does not require some remainder not to say anything. She is a low-born and this is the Liege Lord, who do you go to complain or seek Justice? How much do you really think she will be wanted to talk of this horrible and tramatic event? She will do what many people had to do and that is you work damn hard to blot it out from your conscious mind.

4. If Tywin did not do what he did at KL than Jon Arryn would not of made the suggestion to Robert. Also, Robert is King and the ultimate decision is his. You stated their will be nothing negative and I am showing you the reward. All Tywin statement is his action was to show loyalty. He said nothing of facing punishment for not doing it as much he did not say about being rewarded for what he did.

[Summer is Ending]

Except that he had his barracks rape her, while he and Tyrion looked on.

Furthermore, he made no move to silence any of his guardsmen, nor Tysha. He acted in a way that belies discretion.

It is known by people not present. Cersei, who was not present, knows about it. Littlefinger knows about it too, and tells Sansa. The story is not secret.

Just to confirm, are you saying that Cersei and Littlefinger knew about Tysha? If that's what you're saying can you provide the text showing that or an idea where to look anyways? I was wondering how public that was and while I know(think) the show had someone talking about that I can't remember anything like that in the books.

[jarl the climber]

Just to confirm, are you saying that Cersei and Littlefinger knew about Tysha? If that's what you're saying can you provide the text showing that or an idea where to look anyways? I was wondering how public that was and while I know(think) the show had someone talking about that I can't remember anything like that in the books.

LF mentioned Tyrions first marriage to Sansa around the end of ASOS after he had her on the boat. In ACOK early on in the book Tyrion is talking to Cersei and his marriage comes up and she says something about how he had disgraced the family with that incident. A few people knew about it and maybe it was well known in certian well informed circles but it was not public or something that people went around yelling about. Since Tywin had the marriage annulled I don't know if it really counts as a marriage.

[Woman of War]

LF also presented the end of Tyrion's first marriage in a different light to Sansa. He told her that Tyrion himself gave Tysha to the guards after he was done with her.

[Summer is Ending]

LF mentioned Tyrions first marriage to Sansa around the end of ASOS after he had her on the boat. In ACOK early on in the book Tyrion is talking to Cersei and his marriage comes up and she says something about how he had disgraced the family with that incident. A few people knew about it and maybe it was well known in certian well informed circles but it was not public or something that people went around yelling about. Since Tywin had the marriage annulled I don't know if it really counts as a marriage.

Thank you, Cersei wasn't surprising as of course Kingslayer would tell her but littlefinger kind of was. Definitely more commonly known than I remembered.

And thanks danm_999 as well.

[Quiet Isle]

LF mentioned Tyrions first marriage to Sansa around the end of ASOS after he had her on the boat. In ACOK early on in the book Tyrion is talking to Cersei and his marriage comes up and she says something about how he had disgraced the family with that incident. A few people knew about it and maybe it was well known in certian well informed circles but it was not public or something that people went around yelling about. Since Tywin had the marriage annulled I don't know if it really counts as a marriage.

Could you point to the exact line that indicates the marriage was actually annulled?

[Summer is Ending]

Could you point to the exact line that indicates the marriage was actually annulled?

“To drive the lesson home, Lord Tywin gave my wife to a barracks of his guardsmen to use as they pleased, and commanded me to watch.” And to take her one last time, after the rest were done. One last time, with no trace of love or tenderness remaining. “So you will remember her as she truly is,” he said, and I should have defied him, but my cock betrayed me, and I did as I was bid. “After he was done with her, my father had the marriage undone. It was as if we had never been wed, the septons said.”