Lord Tywin and Shae: an explanation

[hl112]

I believe he did love his but has come to see women as temptresses... I know there is not much textual evidence to support that but it feels very in line with his character

[SeanF]

Hmmm I found this while cleaning up my 'like' page:

By the late Queen Cercei I.

"Late". What happened to her?

[mcb]

Hmmm I found this while cleaning up my 'like' page:

By the late Queen Cercei I.

Late? What happened?

ETA: I swear I didn't cheat off SeanF.

[Scipio Africanus]

A wrong choice of words I see, I don't mean late as in you know, deceased, but I believe she's banned that's all.

[mcb]

Wow. That was unexpected.

[SeanF]

That's a pity. I found some of her posts completely wide of the mark, others brilliantly insightful and funny.

[Scipio Africanus]

That's a pity. I found some of her posts completely wide of the mark, others brilliantly insightful and funny.

Cercei and the Lannister family (well, apart from Tywin lol) lost their fiercest champion yes.

[Woman of War]

I think QC I has taken a time out to sit quietly in her armchair by the fire, diligently knitting Voodoo pincushions of Tyrion, Tywin and Robert, selling them via ebay, for us to put needles into them and to think of her :)

Sorry, QC I, but I am sure you live in a tiny wonderful gingerbread house.

Please make me a Cersei doll. I promise I won't put needles into her but take her to bed with me!

[A wilding]

So are you saying that Varys convinced Jaime (not the other way around) to release Tyrion? And that somehow he antecipated that Jaime would confess to Tyrion an secret que kept for years AND that Tyrion would remember an casual comment Shae made about the secret passage long ago? All that while juggling time so Tywin wouldn't find Shae in his bedchamber... He is Varys, but come on.

Varys would not have known Jaime would demand Jaime release Tyrion, so that was obviously a plus, as was Jaime revealing the truth about Tysha. The theory requires Varys to have been planning to release Tyrion anyway, and to have ensured that Tyrion was told Shae was in Tywin's bed. But perhaps it was mostly happenstance and Varys just seized the opportunity presented to him by Jaime.

However Varys did really telegraph when they were under the Tower of the Hand. He did not even need to have left the chamber illuminated, and surely would have oiled the lock if it was really sticking. I am sure he would have jogged Tyrion's memory if necessary.

[LeoSuperstar]

Varys would not have known Jaime would demand Jaime release Tyrion, so that was obviously a plus, as was Jaime revealing the truth about Tysha. The theory requires Varys to have been planning to release Tyrion anyway, and to have ensured that Tyrion was told Shae was in Tywin's bed. But perhaps it was mostly happenstance and Varys just seized the opportunity presented to him by Jaime.

However Varys did really telegraph when they were under the Tower of the Hand. He did not even need to have left the chamber illuminated, and surely would have oiled the lock if it was really sticking. I am sure he would have jogged Tyrion's memory if necessary.

Without Jaime telling Tyrion the truth about Tysha, Tyrion would not confront Tywin. And Shae's reaction also works against this theory. She doesn't show any surprise about where she is.

And if Varys just wanted Tywin dead, he could have just killed him after Tyrion escaped and everybody would assume it was the Imp work.

Sorry, but this theory just doesn't make sense.

[Ragnorak]

How official is this reading your majesty? I understand of course that it is sealed with the authority of the King of the Board but is this reading also leavened with the word of GRRM?

It's just there is a difference for me in a Tywin who uses prostitutes as he uses Gregor or Tyrion - to achieve a particular end and a Tywin who wants to sleep with Shae specifically when he could sleep with anyone of a huge number of women in Kings Landing, particularly if he was the Hand who had the tunnel to Chataya's constructed and thus could have his pick of some of the fanciest prostitutes in the city.

The one is about meeting a physical need while the other suggests a psychological motivation.

<snip>

I agree wholeheartedly. The Shae incident was quite a shocking event for me on my first read and it made me completely reevaluate my take on Tywin. It had nothing to do with Tywin sleeping with a prostitute, but everything to do with Tywin sleeping with Tyrion's prostitute. That part struck me as particularly warped from a psychological perspective. He is embracing that which he claims to find revolting in his own father with the Hand necklace and that which he claims to detest in his own son by choosing Shae as opposed to any other prostitute. There's a twisted version of Oedipus in there or even a David and Bathsheba given Tywin's role in sentencing Tyrion-- just with prostitutes instead of mothers and wives which conveys a particular corruption of the family.

[A wilding]

Without Jaime telling Tyrion the truth about Tysha, Tyrion would not confront Tywin. And Shae's reaction also works against this theory. She doesn't show any surprise about where she is.

And if Varys just wanted Tywin dead, he could have just killed him after Tyrion escaped and everybody would assume it was the Imp work.

Sorry, but this theory just doesn't make sense.

I think it is reasonable that Varys might have imagined that Tyrion finding out Shae was in Tywin's bed would have been enough to send him up the ladder. After all, Varys has seen how obsessed Tyrion is with Shae from close quarters for the best part of two books, and heard her performance at Tyrion's trial (which he may even have engineered). He even asks Tyrion why he is being such a fool over her.

Why should Shae be surprised about where she is? Whether or not Tywin knows she is there, I am sure she was told she was going there to service Tywin.

I think it is fairly certain Varys did want Tywin dead, to ensure that he did not get Westeros back on its feet before Dany and/or Aegon invaded. So I like best the variation of the theory that Varys had already given Tywin a fatal dose of Widow's Blood and that he was doomed whatever Tyrion did. The point of getting Tyrion to do the deed was of course to completely alienate him from his family, to make him willing to serve Dany and for her to accept him.

For me the core of this theory is that we have a fact that needs explanation: Varys clearly deliberately sent Tyrion up the ladder.

[jarl the climber]

A lot of people on these boards have been screaming hypocrisy at Lord Tywin for scorning whores but bedding Shae.

However, a popular theory is that Lord Tywin had been poisoned with Widow's Blood, which shuts down the bowels and bladder, by Prince Oberyn Martell. This would explain his long visits to the privy and the fact that in the time it took Tyrion to nab a crossbow, load it, strangle Shae and walk to the privy, Lord Tywin had not relieved himself in the slightest. It is also corroborated by the fact that his body stank strongly, even after being cleaned (the sheer amount of feces and urine in it did that).

So, my theory on Shae in his bedchamber is such: Lord Tywin needed to poop and he had tried everything... everything except sexual release. He swallowed his pride and bedded Shae, hoping that sexual release would stimulate his bowels. Ultimately, it didn't help, but it is my belief that he believed that sexual release would help him poop. Hence, Shae.

The last concrete thing we hear about Shae is a Cersei PoV in AFFC, she said that Shae left her crying because Cersei would not give her the jewels and clothing Tyrion had bought for her. I think she had also been promised a manse and a husband. I was under the impression that Shae had probaly approached Tywin to get what she was promised and she probaly used Varys to do this. So it seems to me that Tywin was taking advantage of Shae wanting to get her stuff back.

As far as Tywins corpse stinking, it does seem like this is true but nobody seemed to think that this indicated that he had been poisoned or that there was anything odd about it. The guy was dead and his body started rotting and it stunk, nothing strange about that really.

Out of curiousity, when did Tywin take long visits to the privy?

[chrisdaw]

For me the core of this theory is that we have a fact that needs explanation: Varys clearly deliberately sent Tyrion up the ladder.

That's not remotely clear.

[Net-Viper X]

If taking an hour long shit means you have been poisoned by the Red Viper, then I better call my Mother and send her to the doctor because she must have drank a whole bottle of that poison at some point. Some people just don't shit that often, and when they do it takes a while to get things "moving". I myself have been known to set on the pot so long my legs go numb because of reading this damn book. The restroom is that one place where you can be reasonable assured of privacy, it could be that Tywin used his time in there to pour over records and intel reports without the nagging of his underlings.

And having sex to make you crap?? Are you suggesting that Shea wielded a strap-on against Tywins back side?? I would love to see the look on Tywin face when that is suggested.

[Castel]

A wrong choice of words I see, I don't mean late as in you know, deceased, but I believe she's banned that's all.

Wait, when did this happen??? That explains why I haven't seen her in a while.

Either way that's sad. I didn't always agree, but she had good points.

[SeanF]

I think it is reasonable that Varys might have imagined that Tyrion finding out Shae was in Tywin's bed would have been enough to send him up the ladder. After all, Varys has seen how obsessed Tyrion is with Shae from close quarters for the best part of two books, and heard her performance at Tyrion's trial (which he may even have engineered). He even asks Tyrion why he is being such a fool over her.

Why should Shae be surprised about where she is? Whether or not Tywin knows she is there, I am sure she was told she was going there to service Tywin.

I think it is fairly certain Varys did want Tywin dead, to ensure that he did not get Westeros back on its feet before Dany and/or Aegon invaded. So I like best the variation of the theory that Varys had already given Tywin a fatal dose of Widow's Blood and that he was doomed whatever Tyrion did. The point of getting Tyrion to do the deed was of course to completely alienate him from his family, to make him willing to serve Dany and for her to accept him.

For me the core of this theory is that we have a fact that needs explanation: Varys clearly deliberately sent Tyrion up the ladder.

I'm not convinced that Varys could have anticipated Jaime breaking into his room to force him to free Tyrion.

What I do think is that Varys, on seeing the state Tyrion was in,took the opportunity to "accidentally" lead him to the foot of the ladder that led up to Tywin's bedchamber.

I find the theory that Tywin had been poisoned (either by Varys or the Red Viper) an attractive one, but I'd have to say the case is unproven at this stage.

[King.In.Yellow]

And having sex to make you crap?? Are you suggesting that Shea wielded a strap-on against Tywins back side?? I would love to see the look on Tywin face when that is suggested.

It has been known to relieve... uhm... tension. From personal experience, I get constipated if I go too long without sexual release, kinda like JFK got headaches if he went three days without sex.

[Woman of War]

QC I, you can certainly read even if banned, so we can address you directly: I miss the hotcold lovehate bath your posts present.

And while you are not here I'll refrain from making more fun of the defenseless than absolutely necessary.

P.S. The average age of these forums must be rather high, about 80? since digestion and its results take up so much space in the debates here, shitting being the sex of old age??? We have heard it all now!

[SeanF]

It has been known to relieve... uhm... tension. From personal experience, I get constipated if I go too long without sexual release, kinda like JFK got headaches if he went three days without sex.

I thought he got a headache if we went three hours without sex.