Tyrion: A Clean Record (almost)

[chrisdaw]

Alleged? Are you saying that Tysha may not have been gang-raped? Anyway, participation in something like that is a huge fault. The only reason I would say it was "okay" is because he was only thirteen at the time.

As we're never given Tysha's perspective of the event how could it be anything but alleged?

[TheFlayedMan]

- Armed the mountain clans who are now raping and killing small folk because he wanted revenge against Lysa

- Gave Joff the Antler Men to keep him occupied. No trial first.

- Repeatedly objectified Shae and even hit her.

- Killed Shae

- Raped a sex slave

- At least terrorized another sex slave

I'm sure I missed a few. And, now that I think about it, other than the above, the man's a real saint.

These are the only ones I would really hold as cruel acts, and killing Shae/handing the Antler Men over are grey areas considering the circumstances.

But yeah, Tyrion is definitely not the most benevolent character in the series, nor is he supposed to be. In fact, he's one of the most morally complex characters in ASoIaF.

[Light a wight tonight]

I agree with your points upthread, but objectifying? Even in healthy relationships, a pair of people do this unconsciously. You think a husband never objectified his wife? Or vice versa. How do you get away with sexual attraction without objectification?

Objectifying is one of the most heinous actions possible. Not even Ramsay, vile character that he is, has been accused of that.

[RedBean]

As we're never given Tysha's perspective of the event how could it be anything but alleged?

It's not like Tyrion imagined the whole scene, and even Jaime and Tywin were involved in it. Unless you're saying that Tysha liked being forced to have sex with all those men?

[Frey Pie]

Tyrion has a number of redeeming characteristics but these are far outweighted by his faults. As the books goes on hes getting darker and his actions worse, in contrast with his brother. I agree in large part with Kittykatniss' list but i think he did well by Sansa (other then the infidelity). She could have done a lot worse by Westeros standards.

Added to his list of crimes-Dreaming about raping his sister, threatening Cersei with Tommens rape. Theres far more but thats all i can add.

Could put in boring the pance off me in Dance as well. Hes also very stupid in ways-looking down on Penny for being ugly and a dwarf. Seems he hasnt learnt too much from his own experience

[Frey Pie]

Objectified??? Shae was a whore who WANTED him.

Really? Due to the alacrity she abandoned him with i dont think she ever wanted him

[OberynBlackfyre]

Really? Due to the alacrity she abandoned him with i dont think she ever wanted him

not wanted him sexually, but definitely wanted his money. was moret than willing to play the part for him. INITIATED sex with him numerous times. This is not objectifying

[Kolantero]

I believe that Tyrion is a far more "good" character than a "bad" one but he has done enough stupid/cruel decisions and i certainly wouldn't call him benevolent.

[Ser Luke]

She wanted his MONEY. Big difference.

[Kittykatknits]

Alleged? Are you saying that Tysha may not have been gang-raped? Anyway, participation in something like that is a huge fault. The only reason I would say it was "okay" is because he was only thirteen at the time.

Tysha was gang-raped and what Tyrion needs to struggle with and reconcile is that in this case he was both the victim and victimizer. He gave her his cloak of protection but in the end he failed to provide any at all. His later reflections show regret over himself as the victim.

I agree with your points upthread, but objectifying? Even in healthy relationships, a pair of people do this unconsciously. You think a husband never objectified his wife? Or vice versa. How do you get away with sexual attraction without objectification?

I think comparing their marriage to a healthy marriage with two equal partners doesn't make sense. But, yes, he does objectify her and not at all in a healthy manner. His comment about wanting her to come to him with her joy, tears, and desires is a really good example her. He's framing the marriage on his terms and what he wants from her. At another point, he comments on her beauty, stating that grief makes her only more attractive. So, here he is viewing her pain as an enhancement to her beauty, she's an object to be looked upon. He also says to himself that he wants her and he wants WF. She's a trophy wife, the key to his independence from his father and a way to establish a power base of his own.

None of this is about Sansa the person. It's Sansa the object. She's another Tysha replacement, a chance to get back what he once lost.

[Frey Pie]

not wanted him sexually, but definitely wanted his money. was moret than willing to play the part for him. INITIATED sex with him numerous times. This is not objectifying

Ya wanted his money and did what she had to to get it. I wouldnt use WANT to describe their relationship. He did slap fer once or twice also.

In any case, for the smartest character supposedly, whats with the whole taking credit for Joffs death? Makes no sense whatsoever

[samih]

- Armed the mountain clans who are now raping and killing small folk because he wanted revenge against Lysa

- Broke Marillion's fingers because the man embarrased him

- Expressed satisfaction that Masha Heddle was killed. Her only crime was having the bad luck to own the inn he was taken at.

- Gave Joff the Antler Men to keep him occupied. No trial first.

- Repeatedly objectified Shae and even hit her.

- Poisoned his sister

- Threatened to beat and rape his nephew

- Participated in the forced marriage of Sansa Stark

- Killed his father

- Killed Shae

- Raped a sex slave

- At least terrorized another sex slave

- Had a singer killed.

I'm sure I missed a few. And, now that I think about it, other than the above, the man's a real saint.

Armed the mountain clans and under his command they didn't commit crimes.

I don't recall Tyrion breaking Marillion's fingers.

"Expressed satisfaction that Masha Heddle was killed. Her only crime was having the bad luck to own the inn he was taken at"...really?

The antler men were plotting to give the city to Stannis

Shae is a whore so I don't really see your point...and i dont recall hitting her

Cercei deserved it

He would never beat and rape his nephew....

He was forced into this marriage as well

As I said, after what Tywin did to Tyrion, killing him is what made him even more good

Shae...same argument as above

She was a whore and he wasn't raping her.

Terrorizing a whore...how?

Killing the singer is a nasty move...yes. I said that in the OP

[Florina Laufeyson]

He was more upset with the marriage because Sansa wasn't interested in him. He actually seemed happy about being Lord of Winterfell, and even thinks it will get him away from his father. So, yeah he was unhappy with the marriage, but not because of the injustice it was for Sansa (he only protested a bit at the beginning) and more because he thought Sansa should genuinely love him as a husband, but of course she couldn't.

I still fail to see how that is needlessly nasty and cruel. Self-centered? Yeah, but he didnt want to bring anymore pain to Sansa after the failed consummation. And really, im not sure he truly believed Sansa would love him after all the Lannisters did to her. I think he wanted out of that marriage as much as she did after a point.

[chrisdaw]

It's not like Tyrion imagined the whole scene, and even Jaime and Tywin were involved in it. Unless you're saying that Tysha liked being forced to have sex with all those men?

I'm not saying that, I'm saying I do not know, as there's no POV or nearly enough evidence to provide judgement for or against.

[OberynBlackfyre]

Ya wanted his money and did what she had to to get it. I wouldnt use WANT to describe their relationship. He did slap fer once or twice also.

In any case, for the smartest character supposedly, whats with the whole taking credit for Joffs death? Makes no sense whatsoever

she WANTED to be with him because of the money and power. She many times asked to go stay with him, or go to the wedding, or to court. What she wanted him for doesn't change the fact that did WANT him in a way.

He took credit for Joffs death because he wanted to hurt Jaime. That's all

[RedBean]

I still fail to see how that is needlessly nasty and cruel. Self-centered? Yeah, but he didnt want to bring anymore pain to Sansa after the failed consummation. And really, im not sure he truly believed Sansa would love him after all the Lannisters did to her. I think he wanted out of that marriage as much as she did after a point.

I didn't say it was needlessly nasty and cruel :) It was selfish, however, as you pointed out, and shows that he isn't really a kind and benevolent character like the OP claims.

I'm not saying that, I'm saying I do not know, as there's no POV or nearly enough evidence to provide judgement for or against.

Uh, okay. I guess one can claim anything if one goes with the "not enough information" argument. Even when an issue seems self-evident.

[1234567]

<snip>

I'm sure I missed a few. And, now that I think about it, other than the above, the man's a real saint.

Agreed with your entire list.

Add on to that Striking Penny and needlessly antagonising Alistair Thorne when he brought the hand to KL.

[DogLover]

Raped, a sex slave.......

I know this make me sound very shallow and uncaring, but having sex with a sex slave isn't rape.

What would it be then? Slaves have no say in what happens to them. They're in bondage and repeatedly being victimized. There are sex slaves all over the world right now--are they not victims of rape? Were African slave women who were forced to have sex with their white male "owners" not raped?

[therustman]

There's an element here of using current values and morals to 'judge' Tyrion. Without a doubt he has committed acts that are selfish and vindictive. However, his attitudes to marriage and roles are not unacceptable to Westeros values. I think he treated Sansa reasonabley well in the circumstances, could have been better but could have been a llot worse.

To OberynBlackfyre - I think the point you are trying to make is that Tyrion does not consider it rape as she is a sex slave, but please think about the statement you made and realise how wrong it is. 8 replies I may have been ninja'd on this point.

FreyPie - thought is not a crime

[DogLover]

And Tyrion did participate in Tysha's gang rape. Whether or not he was a victim, he was clearly traumatized, but it was always "Poor Tyrion." He didn't show an ounce of empathy for Tysha until he found out she was not actually a prostitute, as if it's okay to gang rape a prostitute as a form of punishment.