Tyrion: A Clean Record (almost)

[Éadaoin]

How on earth is having sex with a sex slave not rape?

[Florina Laufeyson]

I didn't say it was needlessly nasty and cruel It was selfish, however, as you pointed out, and shows that he isn't really a kind and benevolent character like the OP claims.

Well no, he isnt benevolent at all. But holding that against him on the list of horrible atrocities he has committed is pretty....extreme.

[Minstral]

To have a "legally" clean record he would first need to present himself as the victim of a conspiracy that was perpetrated by someone who is about to fall out of power, namely his sister (that is if anybody thinks its a good idea to exonerate hum).

To have a clean record in his mind though, he would have to go back in time to undo the things that are morally ambiguous that he did. But really, he helped keep his nephew on the throne when he knew he had no claim to it, he is just as guilty off this crime as Cersei or Jamie if we wish to be technical.

[Frey Pie]

He took credit for Joffs death because he wanted to hurt Jaime. That's all

Does he not take credit for it later again or am i mistaken?

[Kittykatknits]

As we're never given Tysha's perspective of the event how could it be anything but alleged?

These are the only ones I would really hold as cruel acts, and killing Shae/handing the Antler Men over are grey areas considering the circumstances.

But yeah, Tyrion is definitely not the most benevolent character in the series, nor is he supposed to be. In fact, he's one of the most morally complex characters in ASoIaF.

Tyrion has a number of redeeming characteristics but these are far outweighted by his faults. As the books goes on hes getting darker and his actions worse, in contrast with his brother. I agree in large part with Kittykatniss' list but i think he did well by Sansa (other then the infidelity). She could have done a lot worse by Westeros standards.

Added to his list of crimes-Dreaming about raping his sister, threatening Cersei with Tommens rape. Theres far more but thats all i can add.

Could put in boring the pance off me in Dance as well. Hes also very stupid in ways-looking down on Penny for being ugly and a dwarf. Seems he hasnt learnt too much from his own experience

Dance was a chore. The great and wise Lummel once pointed out to me that Tyrion's moral compass points straight to Casterly Rock and I think that is quite an accurate statement. I wrote up a post detailing why I describe his marriage to Sansa the way I do. Infidelity is the least of the problems, I'm quite sure Sansa would have been relieved to be honest.

Good point on the dream to rape his sister, I knew I had forgotten a few. Yep, the man isn't evil but he's not a good guy either. The thing with Tyrion is with his thoughts we see his inner conflict and how he sometimes, in a very sympathetic manner, justifies some of his worst acts. It's a great technique on Martin's part.

Ya wanted his money and did what she had to to get it. I wouldnt use WANT to describe their relationship. He did slap fer once or twice also.

In any case, for the smartest character supposedly, whats with the whole taking credit for Joffs death? Makes no sense whatsoever

I still fail to see how that is needlessly nasty and cruel. Self-centered? Yeah, but he didnt want to bring anymore pain to Sansa after the failed consummation. And really, im not sure he truly believed Sansa would love him after all the Lannisters did to her. I think he wanted out of that marriage as much as she did after a point.

The OP's claim is that Tyrion is one of the most benevolent characters in the series, that's what is in dispute here. I'd say some of his comments about wanting her tears, laughter and what not do indicate that he thought he would get her love at one point as a dutiful wife. By the PW, he is disabused of that notion and his thoughts seem to be moving towards the bitter side. It's at this point that he talks of her as dutiful and expresses anger over her stiff Stark knees.

I'd say Tyrion did expect her love and devotion at one

Edits for spelling...

[RedBean]

Well no, he isnt benevolent at all. But holding that against him on the list of horrible atrocities he has committed is pretty....extreme.

Well, it is a fault. I didn't say it was his biggest fault. He has commited greater atrocities, sure, but that was the one you picked out to talk about, so that was the one we discussed.

[PatrickStormborn]

Sex slaves cannot give consent. Having sex with them is therefore rape. It's that simple.

To me, Tyrion's rape of the sex slave is the biggest crime he's committed so far, simply because whilst doing it he recognised how vile the action was ... and then he proceeded to do it again.

[chrisdaw]

Uh, okay. I guess one can claim anything if one goes with the "not enough information" argument. Even when an issue seems self-evident.

We have a young woman agreeing to marry an extremely rich and powerful, (in comparison to herself) physically unattractive young man on the shortest of acquaintances. We then have an account of her performing sexual acts for which payment (above and beyond the standard) is rendered, with no indication in the relay of the event that she were anything but a willing participant. Now what exactly is self-evident?

[Lion of Judah]

Tyrion's disposition is often works against him, his wise cracks and sly comments are the most damning evidence against him in Joffrey's murder.

[RedBean]

We have a young woman agreeing to marry an extremely rich and powerful, (in comparison to herself) physically unattractive young man on the shortest of acquaintances. We then have an account of her performing sexual acts for which payment (above and beyond the standard) is rendered, with no indication in the relay of the event that she were anything but a willing participant. Now what exactly is self-evident?

I'm sure that's how Tywin Lannister justified it as well. :rolleyes:

[samih]

- Raped a sex slave

Forgot she was a sex slave not a whore. In this case I guess you're right about that one

[chrisdaw]

I'm sure that's how Tywin Lannister justified it as well. :rolleyes:

Really? That's your argument?

[RedBean]

Really? That's you're argument?

Yes, I'm afraid so. We seem to have completely different readings of the text. I think she was raped. You seem to think she was a whore, and was happy about a bunch of men forcing themselves on her. Even if she was only interested in performing sexual acts for money, it's not right to just make a bunch of men rape her, then throw some coins on her as if that's all that counts. It's very demeaning to a person.

[Pod The Impaler]

I've been thinking about this and I realized that Tyrion is one of the few characters (maybe the only one) that hasn't made stupid decisions or cruel ones.

Yes, he did kill his father...but a reasonable man would take that chance when he has a father like Tywin.

I think the only cruel act we've seen from Tyrion's part was ordering Bronn to dispose of Symon the singer; and that was after Symon tried to blackmail him.

I see Tyrion as one of the greatest benevolent characters in the series but it seems the odds are always against him.

Tyrion's one of the more grey characters out there. Not that he stays in one place - actually, he seems to alternate between hero / good guy and villain / bad guy frequently.

This is what I see him as in each given period of time:

Start of story = neutral

(From) slaps Joffrey around ---> (to) trial in the Vale = good guy

Trial in the Vale, swears vengeance against Vale ---> goes to King's Landing and will try to do justice = bad guy

Tries to do justice (saves Sansa from evil Joffrey) ---> has a singer murdered = good guy

Has a singer murdered ---> wedding night with Sansa = bad guy

Wedding night with Sansa (doesn't go through with "it") ---> murders Shae = good guy

Murders Shae ---> Murders Tywin = bad guy

Murders Tywin ---> relishing "monster" role while with Illyrio = good guy ???

Relishing "monster" role ---> meets Penny / boards ship = bad guy ???

Meets Penny / boards ship to Meereen ---> good guy ???

See what I mean? Tyrion does some very nasty things at times (arming the Mountain Clans to get back at The Vale, having a singer "disapeared", killing Shae). He also does some very good things at times (being kind to Jon and Bran, trying to protect Sansa from his family, killing his father to avenge Tysha). We don't know what he is, because Tyrion is capable of either one.

All his life it's been rubbed in his face that being a strange-looking dwarf, he's some sort of "monster". Sometimes he takes it too much to heart, and out of defiance or depression will say things or do that make him look more monstrous, particularly versus people like Cersei who expect that of him. On the other hand, sometimes he acts like a typical Lannister - and these are the times he actually is monstrous.

Overall, I think he is probably more good than bad, but we don't know his overall intentions. Indeed, Tyrion himself probably doesn't anymore.

Reminds me of that line from Apocalypse Now, describing Colonel Kurtz:

He broke from them, and then he broke from himself. I'd never seen a man so broken up and ripped apart.

[samih]

Yes, I'm afraid so. We seem to have completely different readings of the text. I think she was raped. You seem to think she was a whore, and was happy about a bunch of men forcing themselves on her. Even if she was only interested in performing sexual acts for money, it's not right to just make a bunch of men rape her, then throw some coins on her as if that's all that counts. It's very demeaning to a person.

Yea but that wasn't Tyrion's fault. He was a kid and was commanded by his father. What would you have him do?

[RedBean]

Yea but that wasn't Tyrion's fault. He was a kid and was commanded by his father. What would you have him do?

Please read the previous posts before making assumptions. I already pointed out that Tyrion was thirteen and that's the only reason I think it was not too bad. However, chrisdaw was trying to say that Tysha might not have been raped, and that was what I was addressing in my responses to him.

[Kittykatknits]

Ya wanted his money and did what she had to to get it. I wouldnt use WANT to describe their relationship. He did slap fer once or twice also.

In any case, for the smartest character supposedly, whats with the whole taking credit for Joffs death? Makes no sense whatsoever

Tyrion deluded himself but ultimately his relationship was a business transaction. He paid for an illusion, an illusion that he sometimes fell for. I don't think Shae is a particularly good person but some of her feelings make sense to me. He fulfilled his part of the bargain for awhile, giving her jewels and nice clothes. Then, he took it away and turned her in to a kitchen scullion, Lolly's servant, and then his wife's servant. I can see why Shae reacted the way she did.

I saw his taking credit for Joff's death as one of the ways he was embracing the monster inside of him.

Agreed with your entire list.

Add on to that Striking Penny and needlessly antagonising Alistair Thorne when he brought the hand to KL.

And Thorne was done because he didn't want to be laughed at.

And Tyrion did participate in Tysha's gang rape. Whether or not he was a victim, he was clearly traumatized, but it was always "Poor Tyrion." He didn't show an ounce of empathy for Tysha until he found out she was not actually a prostitute, as if it's okay to gang rape a prostitute as a form of punishment.

Yes, I found this to be very unsettling. He frames her gang-rape as a punishment against him, he is the victim not her. His mind changes once Jaime tells him the truth which is just as problematic. He learns she was "pure" and suddenly it is wrong. Even so, he still frames the events around him, "she was my wife" so he still defines it in relation to him.

Well no, he isnt benevolent at all. But holding that against him on the list of horrible atrocities he has committed is pretty....extreme.

Slapping Shae isn't a horrible atrocity either. The list I put together is to refute the idea that he is one of the most benevolent characters. It strikes me as a gross misunderstanding to say many of the acts under debate here are only done because others force him to.

Does he not take credit for it later again or am i mistaken?

Yes, he takes credit for it in Dance. More than once IIRC.

Tyrion's disposition is often works against him, his wise cracks and sly comments are the most damning evidence against him in Joffrey's murder.

Yep, we know he was innocent of the charge. But, to an outside observer, he's guilty as all get out. If I didn't know the facts, I'd think he did it too.

[samih]

Tyrion's one of the more grey characters out there. Not that he stays in one place - actually, he seems to alternate between hero / good guy and villain / bad guy frequently.

This is what I see him as in each given period of time:

Start of story = neutral

(From) slaps Joffrey around ---> (to) trial in the Vale = good guy

Trial in the Vale, swears vengeance against Vale ---> goes to King's Landing and will try to do justice = bad guy

Tries to do justice (saves Sansa from evil Joffrey) ---> has a singer murdered = good guy

Has a singer murdered ---> wedding night with Sansa = bad guy

Wedding night with Sansa (doesn't go through with "it") ---> murders Shae = good guy

Murders Shae ---> Murders Tywin = bad guy

Murders Tywin ---> relishing "monster" role while with Illyrio = good guy ???

Relishing "monster" role ---> meets Penny / boards ship = bad guy ???

Meets Penny / boards ship to Meereen ---> good guy ???

See what I mean? Tyrion does some very nasty things at times (arming the Mountain Clans to get back at The Vale, having a singer "disapeared", killing Shae). He also does some very good things at times (being kind to Jon and Bran, trying to protect Sansa from his family, killing his father to avenge Tysha). We don't know what he is, because Tyrion is capable of either one.

All his life it's been rubbed in his face that being a strange-looking dwarf, he's some sort of "monster". Sometimes he takes it too much to heart, and out of defiance or depression will say things or do that make him look more monstrous, particularly versus people like Cersei who expect that of him. On the other hand, sometimes he acts like a typical Lannister - and these are the times he actually is monstrous.

Overall, I think he is probably more good than bad, but we don't know his overall intentions. Indeed, Tyrion himself probably doesn't anymore.

That was nice! and I can understand you seeing him as grey. But for me, he's been acting on good intentions since the beginning. He has these moments where he's desperate or really drunk and does something like having sex with a sex slave....but overall I can't help but see him as a nice guy

[chrisdaw]

Yes, I'm afraid so. We seem to have completely different readings of the text. I think she was raped. You seem to think she was a whore, and was happy about a bunch of men forcing themselves on her. Even if she was only interested in performing sexual acts of money, it's not right to just make a bunch of men rape her, then throw some coins on her as if that's all that counts. It's very demeaning to a person.

That's pretty much all assumption, and so using the word alleged is perfectly fitting. First of all I don't think she was a whore, I do not shut out the possibility she performed those acts willingly for provided payment, given there's no real evidence to the contrary. Likewise there's no evidence the men forced themselves on her, that she felt demeaned or was not entirely content with the manner in which those events unfolded.

[RedBean]

That's pretty much all assumption, and so using the word alleged is perfectly fitting. First of all I don't think she was a whore, I do not shut out the possibility she performed those acts willingly for provided payment, given there's no real evidence to the contrary. Likewise there's no evidence the men forced themselves on her, that she felt demeaned or was not entirely content with the manner in which those events unfolded.

I don't think most ASOIAF readers would agree with your view. But I'm tired of arguing this point. Let's agree to disagree here.