Psychopathy in Westeros

[Castel]

being a pyscopath or a sociopath does not necessarily make you evil

And I think that GRRM is referring to evil here as a moral absolute. Morgoth and Sauron and Voldemort are evil in a way that no character in the ASOIAF universe can ever be, the very universe seems to notice this fact. The people in ASOIAF have a mix of different traits and don't have that sort of morality to work with.

[Gurkhal]

being a pyscopath or a sociopath does not necessarily make you evil

Isn't it more or less the modern equivalent to being evil? At least in popular culture.

[Castel]

Isn't it more or less the modern equivalent to being evil? At least in popular culture.

Popular culture is silly. It's not.

[Darth Visenya]

Isn't it more or less the modern equivalent to being evil? At least in popular culture.

I see them as two different things, I think a lot of us could say that at times we would like to be capable of some Sociopathic traits to avoid feeling emotional pain, but to actually not be able to experience empathy or emotions for anyone, or anything for your whole life must be horrible.

[BigNiall]

I feel Cersei is more BPD than ASPD. I'm not a psychiatrist but my ex is diagnosed BPD and she is Cersei made flesh.

[the titan of westeros]

Maybe in westeros the people who actually stop to think about the things that they do are the insane ones like Tyrion. Tyrion is backwards insane and Joffrey is just a prick. I have always thought of Ramsay as a demented psychopath type of character though

[Thendel]

I'd say Joffrey had an anti-social disorder: Based on the whole cat experience, I'd say he was damaged goods from the start.

Moreover, I've got this pet theory that Rhaegar was manic depressive: This is based on his perpetual bouts of melancholy and sadness and him occasional surprising everyone by excelling at something, or doing unexpected and often rash things (like eloping with Lyanna).

However, I firmly do not believe Tywin was a sociopath or a psychopath: Most of his emotional responses (and they're there) are perfectly normal, and he has proven himself very capable of long-term planning and acting responsibly.

[kephv]

Not one yet, but Arya's practically training to become a sociopath.

[Stormcloak]

Cersei is definately not a psycho............she is not impulsive or irresponsible and has no behaviour issues

The incestuous, power crazed, paranoid queen has no behaviour issues? Are we reading the same books?

[Harald Hard-Ruler]

Hare's checklist:

• glib and superficial charm
  
• grandiose (exaggeratedly high) estimation of self
  
• need for stimulation
  
• pathological lying
  
• cunning and manipulativeness
  
• lack of remorse or guilt
  
• shallow affect (superficial emotional responsiveness)
  
• callousness and lack of empathy
  
• parasitic lifestyle
  
• poor behavioral controls
  
• sexual promiscuity
  
• early behavior problems
  
• lack of realistic long-term goals
  
• impulsivity
  
• irresponsibility
  
• failure to accept responsibility for own actions
  
• many short-term marital relationships
  
• juvenile delinquency
  
• revocation of conditional release
  
• criminal versatility
  

Who ticks these?

Tyrion, oddly enough

[Éadaoin]

I feel Cersei is more BPD than ASPD. I'm not a psychiatrist but my ex is diagnosed BPD and she is Cersei made flesh.

Cersei doesn't come across as BPD to me. There is a theory that people with BPD do not truly lack empathy but have an excess of it, which (in part) drives them to be hyper-sensitive and prone to slights - and ironically makes it seem as though they don't have any empathy at all. Whereas Cersei literally seems to lack empathy itself. BPD can mimic other disorders but I think what drives it is quite different. And the way in which she craves power doesn't seem like BPD to me. If we had to diagnose her with something from our world, I think other disorders would end up fitting better.

ETA: though obviously, in Westeros, craving power does not seem to deviate markedly from the norm.

[King Aerys the Just]

Isn't it more or less the modern equivalent to being evil? At least in popular culture.

It pretty much is. The important personal traits associated with psychopathy (or its related disorders) are pretty much exactly the ones people tend to bring up when philosophically discussing what evil really is.

[TheZone]

The incestuous, power crazed, paranoid queen has no behaviour issues? Are we reading the same books?

I stand to it, Cercei is not a psychopath however she is kind of sadistic. A Psycopath is a cunning calculating person who is great at hiding whatever they are doing,the have a certain charm about them self and charisma that helps them hide their true colors a.k.a the guy from Lovely Bones, Cercei is quite open about it, she does not hide it, or care much really what the people will think. On that basis alone, is how she is excluded as a psychopath. However sadism and power hunger is her mea culpa.

[TheZone]

It pretty much is. The important personal traits associated with psychopathy (or its related disorders) are pretty much exactly the ones people tend to bring up when philosophically discussing what evil really is.

I will actually add on to this, evil people love the fact that they are being wrong,it gives them the sick pleasure of braking the rules while understanding the true extent of their actions,psychotic people on the other hand don't understand what they are truly doing, its an addiction whenever they get withdrawals they must strike again,they don't understand that its wrong they just know , being caught is not an easy situation.

[Éadaoin]

I will actually add on to this, evil people love the fact that they are being wrong,it gives them the sick pleasure of braking the rules while understanding the true extent of their actions,psychotic people on the other hand don't understand what they are truly doing, its an addiction whenever they get withdrawals they must strike again,they don't understand that its wrong they just know , being caught is not an easy situation.

Being psychotic is not the same thing as being a psychopath. Psychosis is loss of contact with reality AFAIK.

[King Aerys the Just]

I will actually add on to this, evil people love the fact that they are being wrong,it gives them the sick pleasure of braking the rules while understanding the true extent of their actions,psychotic people on the other hand don't understand what they are truly doing, its an addiction whenever they get withdrawals they must strike again,they don't understand that its wrong they just know , being caught is not an easy situation.

I might have misunderstood you, but it's not psychotic people I am talking about, but psychopatic/sociopathic/etc.

Edit: Too late!

[TheZone]

Being psychotic is not the same thing as being a psychopath. Psychosis is loss of contact with reality AFAIK.

Sorry My bad, but you know what I meant,that what watching Kourtney and Khloe will give me.

[bharryb]

The Confirmed Psychopaths Club:

(Note: Not making a psychopath / sociopath distinction here, though one could choose to.)

Tywin Lannister

Cersei Lannister

Joffrey Baratheon Lannister

Gregor Clegane

Amory Lorch

The Tickler

most of the Brave Companions (Vargo Hoat, Shagwell, Rorge, Biter, Qyburn, etc.)

Walder Frey

Roose Bolton

Ramsay Snow Bolton (and most of his men)

Craster

Clayton Suggs

Euron Greyjoy

Bloodbeard

Quite Likely / "prospects":

Randyll Tarly

Petyr Baelish

Lyn Corbray

Ser Patrek of King's Mountain

Ser Alliser Thorne

whoever oversaw the creation of the Unsullied

Viserys Targaryen (?)

There is only one former member for the club - Jaime Lannister.

Medically speaking, it is quite unusual that amputation of a hand has the effects of a lobotomy, har ! :devil:

Cersei's "love" for her children is rooted in their enhancement of her own power and prestige as queen; I do not believe she loves them in any way besides this.

Joffrey was clearly her favourite child, her golden heir - she gave him the (pardon the pun) lion's share of her parental attention, and look how he turned out. She let him abuse people - even abuse of her other children - and justified it because he was the future king. She also effectively cut both Jaime and Robert out of his life so that Joffrey would be only hers.

Ironically, Myrcella and Tommen seem much more normal, probably because of the lack of attention she probably gave them. I would not be surprised to learn she simply passed them off the the maids, septas and maesters. However, she still remains possessive of them. Once Joffrey is killed, you see her attitude towards Tommen do a 180 degree turn - she becomes over-involved to the point where she stunts his development. She prevents him from learning how to be a ruler and a man, turning away the help of people like Margaery, Loras, Jaime, Kevan. Poor Tommen - he's being psychologically castrated and infantilized. Once again, because her son, the king, must be a reflection of her - only her.

As for her "love" of Jaime, we find out it has been completely insincere. Every time she wants something from him, she gets it - he is wrapped around her little finger. Yet every time he professes a desire to leave the whole game and just prioritize live together with her and their children, she rejects it categorically, because it would cost her all her power. Plus, as we find out, she would have gladly kicked him to the curb years ago if Rhaegar was available to her. She wanted to marry Rhaegar out of her desire to have all the power of a queen and have royal uber-babies with him. Yet, she still found a way to resent (and most likely murder) her friend Melara simply for wanting Jaime herself. Jaime was Cersei's possession - just like with Gregor Clegane and his toy knight.

That is the measure of Cersei's "love".

I disagree with her love for her other children. Her reactions to Tyrion sending Myrcella away to Dorne for one. She does have authentic love for her children. She is just does not fulfill enough of the criteria to have me convinced. She has never been violent and never murdered (unless I am forgetting something and being really stupid). Many women have men wrapped around their little finger, does not make them psychos.

I have turned around on LF though, I suspect he may be a psychopath. It is difficult because there are no PoV's. I think the next couple of books where his motives become more clear will make it easier to say.

[Éadaoin]

I disagree with her love for her other children. Her reactions to Tyrion sending Myrcella away to Dorne for one. She does have authentic love for her children. She is just does not fulfill enough of the criteria to have me convinced. She has never been violent and never murdered (unless I am forgetting something and being really stupid). Many women have men wrapped around their little finger, does not make them psychos.

I have turned around on LF though, I suspect he may be a psychopath. It is difficult because there are no PoV's. I think the next couple of books where his motives become more clear will make it easier to say.

You don't have to be violent to be sociopathic as far as i know, not sure if psychopathy is different.

Cersei did give up those people to Qyburn, didn't she? And probably other dubious things that I'm forgetting.

[King Euron Swagjoy]

I disagree with her love for her other children. Her reactions to Tyrion sending Myrcella away to Dorne for one. She does have authentic love for her children. She is just does not fulfill enough of the criteria to have me convinced. She has never been violent and never murdered (unless I am forgetting something and being really stupid). Many women have men wrapped around their little finger, does not make them psychos.

I have turned around on LF though, I suspect he may be a psychopath. It is difficult because there are no PoV's. I think the next couple of books where his motives become more clear will make it easier to say.

You don't have to be violent to be sociopathic as far as i know, not sure if psychopathy is different.

Cersei did give up those people to Qyburn, didn't she? And probably other dubious things that I'm forgetting.

She probably pushed her friend down a well when she was younger. That's fairly violent