Psychopathy in Westeros

[Pod The Impaler]

Hare's checklist:

• glib and superficial charm
  
• grandiose (exaggeratedly high) estimation of self
  
• need for stimulation
  
• pathological lying
  
• cunning and manipulativeness
  
• lack of remorse or guilt
  
• shallow affect (superficial emotional responsiveness)
  
• callousness and lack of empathy
  
• parasitic lifestyle
  
• poor behavioral controls
  
• sexual promiscuity
  
• early behavior problems
  
• lack of realistic long-term goals
  
• impulsivity
  
• irresponsibility
  
• failure to accept responsibility for own actions
  
• many short-term marital relationships
  
• juvenile delinquency
  
• revocation of conditional release
  
• criminal versatility
  

Who ticks these?

Cersei is all of these except perhaps the last 4 (and 3 of those are modern penal-system-related things).

Really, all she lacks in terms of killing people is the physicality to do in people herself (Melara aside) - she is no Gregor Clegane or Ramsay Snow. However, arranging or ordering deaths is hardly different than doing the deed yourself, and she has done plenty of that.

The most basic definition of a psychopath (according to Hare) is a person without a conscience. There are plenty of psychopaths and sociopaths who never kill anyone (directly or by explicitly ordering it). Yet the more power they have, the more harm they do, and the more power they want.

Here is an good source / description:

There is a class of individuals who have been around forever and who are found in every race' date=' culture, society and walk of life. Everybody has met these people, been deceived and manipulated by them, and forced to live with or repair the damage they have wrought. These often charming-but always deadly-individuals have a clinical name: psychopaths. Their hallmark is a stunning lack of conscience; their game is self-gratification at the other person’s expense. Many spend time in prison, but many do not. All take far more than they give.

[/quote']

http://aftermath-sur...re-they-attack/

Start where it says "Key Symptoms of Psychopathy" - the summaries of each are very good reading.

Not the least bit, no.

Just interpreting what I read on my own.

[Thendel]

Tyrion, oddly enough

Please explain how you come to this; I really can't see how he checks out all of these.

[Porcelain Steel]

Cersei doesn't come across as BPD to me. There is a theory that people with BPD do not truly lack empathy but have an excess of it, which (in part) drives them to be hyper-sensitive and prone to slights - and ironically makes it seem as though they don't have any empathy at all.

Interestingly enough, I think if one were going to argue that Tyrion had any personality disorder, it might be BPD. Other traits of BPD include impulsivity , alcohol or drug abuse, hyper sexuality, unstable relationships insecurity, fear of rejection/abandonment, chronic feelings of emptiness, and unstable self image. I certainly don't think he's a sociopath or a pyschopath.

[Porcelain Steel]

Moreover, I've got this pet theory that Rhaegar was manic depressive: This is based on his perpetual bouts of melancholy and sadness and him occasional surprising everyone by excelling at something, or doing unexpected and often rash things (like eloping with Lyanna).

I also agree with this...I remember seeing it in a Rhaegar thread somewhere and thinking it made a lot of sense.

[Éadaoin]

Interestingly enough, I think if one were going to argue that Tyrion had any personality disorder, it might be BPD. Other traits of BPD include impulsivity , alcohol or drug abuse, hyper sexuality, unstable relationships insecurity, fear of rejection/abandonment, chronic feelings of emptiness, and unstable self image. I certainly don't think he's a sociopath or a pyschopath.

That's actually really interesting. I've read that people with BPD can be very witty and engaging, which also fits Tyrion besides some of the others you mentioned. The periods of self-loathing that people with BPD experience also applies to him.

ETA: though he doesn't have the rapid mood swings which are common in BPD.

[Scipio Africanus]

Hare's checklist:

• glib and superficial charm
  
• grandiose (exaggeratedly high) estimation of self
  
• need for stimulation
  
• pathological lying
  
• cunning and manipulativeness
  
• lack of remorse or guilt
  
• shallow affect (superficial emotional responsiveness)
  
• callousness and lack of empathy
  
• parasitic lifestyle
  
• poor behavioral controls
  
• sexual promiscuity
  
• early behavior problems
  
• lack of realistic long-term goals
  
• impulsivity
  
• irresponsibility
  
• failure to accept responsibility for own actions
  
• many short-term marital relationships
  
• juvenile delinquency
  
• revocation of conditional release
  
• criminal versatility
  

Who ticks these?

Joff

Gregor

Ramsay

unknown of Roose and Euron fit the bill but seems so.

I'd reckon people like Cercei, LF, Varys etc are sociopaths.

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

Damn...who isn't? That list would be shorter. lol

[Lady Tanalyth]

What about Victarion? Doesn't he think those virgins he sacrificed are singing instead of screaming at one point? I thought that seemed like the action of a psychopath.

[UnbentFury]

What about Victarion? Doesn't he think those virgins he sacrificed are singing instead of screaming at one point? I thought that seemed like the action of a psychopath.

Having delusions doesn't mean you're a psychopath. It sounds more schizophrenic than anything, and these two are not the same thing.

[Pod The Impaler]

What about Victarion? Doesn't he think those virgins he sacrificed are singing instead of screaming at one point? I thought that seemed like the action of a psychopath.

No, he's just a fanatic warrior. He does have a conscience, a moral code of a twisted Ironborn sort.

There's probably a clinical term for what he is. ("Goon" is not a clinical term.)

[FacelessDude]

psychopaths are not evil

That is actually true. Psychopaths may not be evil, but some end up doing evil (bad) things to others. It's possible to be psychopath/sociopath and not do any harm to others in society. It's possible that some other characters in Westeros are psychopaths/sociopaths but they do good, but still lack empathy and can't relate emotionally to others.

To Pod the Impaler, psychopaths/sociopaths do have a conscience (conscience as in they have the intellect to judge what is right and wrong, that's a conscience) and they have morals. The problem with them is that they have no emotional attachment to how others feel, they don't experience guilt. Sociopaths are very impulsive, they have a hard time relating to others as well as being good at the art of deception. When sociopaths are young and try to fit into society they learn to mimic others emotions, but without the actual feeling of that emotion, in the list above that would be superficial emotional responsiveness.

While Anti-social personality disorder and sociopathy aren't synonymous, you'll see that every serial killer has ASPD and all sociopaths do (the ones that aren't serial killers or murderers). So if someone is a sociopath and they have the urge to rape or kill, not much would be holding them back. It's estimated that 1 out of 100 people are sociopaths/psychopaths in the world.

[Captain Victarion Greyjoy]

No, he's just a fanatic warrior. He does have a conscience, a moral code of a twisted Ironborn sort.

Euron is top 5 Psycopats , removing the tongue of his crew is just sick and that is just a small example , who knows what evil acts he did while being exiled.

Also he is a great liar , a mastemind in the manipulative arts...the guy is so dangerous , I would love to see more of him , maybe a POV.

[Winter's Knight]

Yes, I think Eron is a psycopath-Cersei not so much. She tries to shift the blame for her actions onto others rather like Tyrion ("He forced me to do this") which, I think does show the presence of a stunted conscience.

Also, a diagnosis of psycopathy requires a barrage of tests-it isn't just fitting one set of characteristics.

[Castel]

Yes, I think Eron is a psycopath-Cersei not so much. She tries to shift the blame for her actions onto others rather like Tyrion ("He forced me to do this") which, I think does show the presence of a stunted conscience.

Also, a diagnosis of psycopathy requires a barrage of tests-it isn't just fitting one set of characteristics.

failure to accept responsibility for own actions

Is a conscience that prevents you from acting in a completely sociopathic manner towards people a conscience at all?

[FacelessDude]

Yes, I think Eron is a psycopath-Cersei not so much. She tries to shift the blame for her actions onto others rather like Tyrion ("He forced me to do this") which, I think does show the presence of a stunted conscience.

Also, a diagnosis of psycopathy requires a barrage of tests-it isn't just fitting one set of characteristics.

This is also true.

Since people are different it will of course vary with sociopaths as well, they have many disorders that combine on the spectrum of sociopathy. Some could have Borderline Personality Disorder + Anti-social Personality Disorder + a type of paraphilia, etc.

[FacelessDude]

Is a conscience that prevents you from acting in a completely sociopathic manner towards people a conscience at all?

If they have the intellect to know what is right or wrong, yes.

[Winter's Knight]

Is a conscience that prevents you from acting in a completely sociopathic manner towards people a conscience at all?

Yes. Look, Bran knows it's wrong to warg Hodor, he knows that he is hurting him but does so anyway-it doesn't make him a psycopath though. Just as Jaime understands that he was wrong to push Bran but feels no remorse about it-still not a psycopath.

[Mad Madam Mim]

I have always considered Cersei to be more narcissistic personality disorder rather than suffering from psychopathy. Her ideal sexual partner is her twin brother...you can't get more narcissistic than that.