Why isn't Ned considered a great swordsman by those in Westeros?

[The Alchemist]

As readers, we know that Eddard Stark slew Arthur Dayne with the help of Howland Reed. In Westeros, the part about Howland Reed 'saving' Stark does not seem to be well known, what IS well know is that Stark slew Dayne.

So, why don't other Westerosis consider him a great swordsman considering he slew The Sword of the Morning?

In one of the opening chapters of GoT, Catelyn recalls how those in Winterfell talked of their young Lord slaying the greatest of the Kingsguard. Now, initially, one could sum it up as people being proud of their own house, and embellishing the facts the same way people always support their favorite sports team, even when they don't perform well. However, later in GoT, when Ned confronts Cersei about the incest, she mentions him killing Arthur Dayne. Considering the Lannisters and Starks have been distrustful of each other for quite some time, I don't think she was just flattering him. What I also find odd is how Jaime talks about Arthur Dayne's prowess, yet also mentions how he was never scared of Ned Stark. You would think that he should at least respect Stark as a great fighter considering he killed one of Jaime's idols, especially since Jaime most likely doesn't know about Howland.

[kephv]

Because real Swordsmen know better.

[Eelridge]

He didn't have a good head on his shoulders

[Summer is Ending]

As readers, we know that Eddard Stark slew Arthur Dayne with the help of Howland Reed. In Westeros, the part about Howland Reed 'saving' Stark does not seem to be well known, what IS well know is that Stark slew Dayne.

So, why don't other Westerosis consider him a great swordsman considering he slew The Sword of the Morning?

In one of the opening chapters of GoT, Catelyn recalls how those in Winterfell talked of their young Lord slaying the greatest of the Kingsguard. Now, initially, one could sum it up as people being proud of their own house, and embellishing the facts the same way people always support their favorite sports team, even when they don't perform well. However, later in GoT, when Ned confronts Cersei about the incest, she mentions him killing Arthur Dayne. Considering the Lannisters and Starks have been distrustful of each other for quite some time, I don't think she was just flattering him. What I also find odd is how Jaime talks about Arthur Dayne's prowess, yet also mentions how he was never scared of Ned Stark. You would think that he should at least respect Stark as a great fighter considering he killed one of Jaime's idols, especially since Jaime most likely doesn't know about Howland.

Kingslayer is not Westeros. Maybe Ned does have a good reputation as a killer by the rest of the nobility. Kingslayer thinks he can beat anyone and while I can always find plenty to dislike about Kingslayer that arrogance isn't one of them. He's a warrior. He shouldn't fight if he's expecting to lose.

In fact that could say something about Ned that Kingslayer would actually go out of his way to say he doesn't fear him. That speaks of a reputation Ned might carry but just isn't spelled out in the books. The idea has to be there or why even bother saying it. You don't tell a kitten you don't fear it because of course that's just obvious.

I've also always wondered why we never had any thoughts of Kingslayer about Ned concerning Dayne. It seems strange to me as well as much as he thinks about Dayne there's never even a single though of Ned killing him. I wondered if Westeros even knew it until someone reminded me of that Cersei scene.

[kephv]

It seems strange to me as well as much as he thinks about Dayne there's never even a single though of Ned killing him. I wondered if Westeros even knew it until someone reminded me of that Cersei scene.

Obviously, it's because Goldenhand the Just wouldn't believe something that silly, especially since he knows what kind of man Ned is.

[Lord Ben]

Because then he left and went back to the North and raised his family. Tournaments are a great way to get your name out there, Ned didn't do that.

[Know Face Man]

If it wasn't for Howland Reed, Ser Arthur Dayne would have killed Ned.

[Summer is Ending]

Obviously, it's because Goldenhand the Just wouldn't believe something that silly, especially since he knows what kind of man Ned is.

Damn right he knew. That's why he got right the fuck up off the throne when Ned gave him the eye.

[kephv]

That's why he got right the fuck up off the throne when Ned gave him the eye.

:rofl:

[Summer is Ending]

:rofl:

Like a little boy caught with his hand in the cookie jar.

[kephv]

Like a little boy caught with his hand in the cookie jar.

If you're going to make such inane posts, don't expect people to take you seriously.

[straits]

If you're going to make such inane posts, don't expect people to take you seriously.

You aren't suddenly 'people' because you have ManyFaced in your name. You make a point of calling Jamie Goldenhand and expect others to take you seriously.

[kephv]

You aren't suddenly 'people' because you have ManyFaced in your name. You make a point of calling Jamie Goldenhand and expect others to take you seriously.

He's called that in the book.

[Lion of Judah]

Because Ned doesn't care quite frankly. Ned is really an anomaly in that sense, but what else can you expect for a man that has seen several wars and much death in his life?

[Sweet-N-SourRobin]

Because the best firsthand witnesses of Ned's greatness are all dead.

Because he killed them.

Tourney Knights get talked up as the best because their opponents live to tell about it. Ned's opponents don't.

[Greywolf2375]

Because he isn't a great swordsman. Certain people would know of rumors about ToJ, but it isn't like all of the information is available for everyone to see and know. On top of that, Ned knows he was a dead man if he faced Dayne - or any of them - alone.

[danm_999]

Two things;

1) Ned doesn't boast.

2) A conversation in which Ned would boast might go something like this;

Ned: So yep, I killed Arthur Dayne, Gerold Hightower and Oswell Whent. Had some help, but it was pretty much all me.

Barristan Selmy: Wow! Okay, since I'm Lord Commander now, it's my job to record their deaths, and put all this down in the White Book, and what they were doing when it happened. Where did this happen?

Ned: Oh. Down in Dorne, at a place called the Tower of Joy.

Barristan Selmy: Ok, I always wondered where Hightower went. So wait, why where they down there during the Trident and the Sack of King's Landing?

Ned: Err. Rhaegar ordered them to stay.

Barristan Selmy: Ok, but why didn't they leave when Rhaegar was killed at the Trident? Or why didn't they leave when their liege Viserys was not being protected by a knight of the Kingsguard on Dragonstone? What was keeping them there?

Ned: Actually, let's change the subject.

[corbon]

As readers, we know that Eddard Stark slew Arthur Dayne with the help of Howland Reed. In Westeros, the part about Howland Reed 'saving' Stark does not seem to be well known, what IS well know is that Stark slew Dayne.

We don't even know that, let alone the people of westeros. We know that if it wasn't for HR, Dayne would have slain Ned. We know that people who weren't present whisper about their Lord (Ned) slaying Dayne in single combat. We know that Ned doesn't talk about it.

All that sums up to Ned probably did kill Dayne, but it wasn't a glorious single combat, it was a desperate and losing fight until HR did something that changed it.

So, why don't other Westerosis consider him a great swordsman considering he slew The Sword of the Morning?

In one of the opening chapters of GoT, Catelyn recalls how those in Winterfell talked of their young Lord slaying the greatest of the Kingsguard. Now, initially, one could sum it up as people being proud of their own house, and embellishing the facts the same way people always support their favorite sports team, even when they don't perform well. However, later in GoT, when Ned confronts Cersei about the incest, she mentions him killing Arthur Dayne. Considering the Lannisters and Starks have been distrustful of each other for quite some time, I don't think she was just flattering him. What I also find odd is how Jaime talks about Arthur Dayne's prowess, yet also mentions how he was never scared of Ned Stark. You would think that he should at least respect Stark as a great fighter considering he killed one of Jaime's idols, especially since Jaime most likely doesn't know about Howland.

First, he's simply not a great swordsman. Competent, maybe, but not particularly skilled. GRRM has stated that Brandon Stark was the swordsman of the family.

More pertinently, IIRC Bronze Yohn was able to best both Ned and Ser Rodrik together at practice. Clearly Rodrik is no slouch, and clearly Ned is no slouch. Yet equally Bronze Yohn is no Barristan the Bold, Jaime Lainnister or Ser Arthur Dayne. So Ned can't be particularly great on that evidence.

As for westeros, virtually no one has any idea about what happened at ToJ. Everyone knows Ned somehow vanquished Arthur Dayne because he publically returned the sword Dawn to Starfall, but as far as anyone knows it could have been an ambush by 100 men, a knife in the back, a 1 v 1 duel, or anything in between. No one living bar HR knows the details and most just assume "Ned" means "Ned and his men" (5 of which disappeared with him and never came back, remember). It's Ser Arthur Dayne - no one in Ned's position would be nuts enough to go up against him alone, 1v1. Thats the sort of fight you work the odds on. And did apparently. 7v1, and only 2 of the 7 returned, with the sword of the 1.

The Winterfell men whisper about their Lord winning 1 on 1 because its what they'd like to believe. They have no way of knowing the truth, just that Ned returned Dawn, and they love Ned so they choose to believe he got the sword from winning a 1v1 duel. Ned doesn't disabuse them because he doesn't want to talk about it and its good for morale anyway.

[callmedodge]

Ned doesn`t fight in tourneys because when he meets a man on the field he doesn`t want them to know what he can do.

It`s a simple case of nobody knowing because nobodies seen him do anything.

[sarah.jenice]

Because then he left and went back to the North and raised his family. Tournaments are a great way to get your name out there, Ned didn't do that.

:agree: I like what he says in the show about not fighting in tourneys so when he fights a man for real, they don't know what he can do.

We don't really hear anyone talked about as great warriors except for members of the Kingsguard and Targaryens. There are just a few others like the Mountain that are noted but the most well-known warriors are Kingsguard because of their celebrity status.