Why isn't Ned considered a great swordsman by those in Westeros?

[Summer is Ending]

Brandon was supposedly a great swordsman and I imagine Benjen is no slouch. The North has TONS of people and a lot of war vets to spar with, they are trained from a young age just like anyone from the south.

I have thought for a long time that the north could use a military academy but that would be to train an elite fighting force, if bannermen wanted to send their second sons that would be fine.

And as strange as it sounds considering the size of the north they all did visit each other more often than you'd expect. Theon reflects on them visiting the Tallharts. The Umbers had been around him enough to know he was a smiling db. Ned did the circuit of the clans, the Karstarks visiting to see if there were sparks between Alys and Robb. The harvest festivals and likely others as well and so on and so forth.

Though of course then you have to wonder how often a 'harvest festival' happened considering the seasons.

[MagnusPrime]

Good points. While the North does disdain tourneys a military academy would probably be embraced. Especially if the recruits were destined to become apart of a northern guard. Men's who lives were spent patrolling and guarding the borders.

[Aerys Blackfyre]

because of the Tower of Joy? yeah, the kingsguard were outnumbered, but they were the best in all realm

[jon stark I]

GRRM said Ned was a good swordsman but not as good as Arthur Dayne he was an averege fighter compared to Dayne but Ned and his friends outnumbered KG 6 against 3.Anyway they eventually killed KG which were the best swordsman ever walked in westeros so he must be a great swordsman acording to me i don't care what GRRM says Ned rulez :D

[jmastar]

So much delusion in this thread.. As some people whom actually read the books and are not blinded by stark love have said... Ned is a main player who beat 3 KG with overwhelming numbers... This is his greatest achievement.. as some have said he got the shit kicked out of him by Lyn in the practice yard , so he is not among the top swordsman in the realm... such Winterfell homer-ism in this here.

[Cruella]

I just don't understand why it's not enough that Ned is kind, compassionate and just man who cares about people, he also needs to be some sort of greatest warrior like he would be in bad fantasy book. Like otherwise he's not good enough.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

It can't help that he was smashed down to the ground by Lyn Corbray when he visited winterfell...he was just average

Bronze Yohn Royce, not Lyn Corbray, beat Ned.

Is it ever specifically stated that Ned killed Dayne? I always imagined it as Dayne about to kill Ned then Howlands attacks him from behind.

[Ironkiller]

Ned was just an average warrior... He was a great genreal and ruler, tho.

BTW since when is Loras close to Jaime or Barristan's level? I put him more on Jon Snow's level, actually I think Jon would beat him.

What?! Not that I think Loras is on the Kingslayer's level, but Jaime himself recognizes he is a great swordsman, and that he reminds him of himself at a younger age. I think every single character in the series heighten Loras ability as a swordsman, when talking about him.

I REALLY don't recall anyone thinking anything similar of Jon Snow... He is good enough, but Loras would defeat him easily, if Ghost wasn't involved in the fight.

[Barty]

So much delusion in this thread.. As some people whom actually read the books and are not blinded by stark love have said... Ned is a main player who beat 3 KG with overwhelming numbers... This is his greatest achievement.. as some have said he got the shit kicked out of him by Lyn in the practice yard , so he is not among the top swordsman in the realm... such Winterfell homer-ism in this here.

And as some people who have actually read the books have said - It was the Bronze Yohn who beat Ned and not Lyn

[Barty]

Ned was just an average warrior... He was a great genreal and ruler, tho.

What?! Not that I think Loras is on the Kingslayer's level, but Jaime himself recognizes he is a great swordsman, and that he reminds him of himself at a younger age. I think every single character in the series heighten Loras ability as a swordsman, when talking about him.

I REALLY don't recall anyone thinking anything similar of Jon Snow... He is good enough, but Loras would defeat him easily, if Ghost wasn't involved in the fight.

Jaime recognizes Loras as a great jouster - not a swordsman( he thinks that maybe it was not an accident that he lost to Loras in a Joust). Jaime is reminded of a younger him by Loras' attitude and confidence, not by his swordplay. Loras is definitely very talented but his strength is the Lance and not the Sword.

[Zacker]

Sparring means nothing. Sparring is practise. Any boxer or sport-fighter will tell you that.

[MagnusPrime]

So much delusion in this thread.. As some people whom actually read the books and are not blinded by stark love have said... Ned is a main player who beat 3 KG with overwhelming numbers... This is his greatest achievement.. as some have said he got the shit kicked out of him by Lyn in the practice yard , so he is not among the top swordsman in the realm... such Winterfell homer-ism in this here.

It was bronze Yohn Royce a man who even though is of an older age than Ned is a big Powerful man. And no one says that ned got his ass whooped just that bronze yohn defeated him handedly while in the yard. Which is really not that bad as while Bronze Yohn may be the better warrior The Ned could be the better General.

And while Loras would admit to Garlan being the better Swordsman Loras is not without considerable skill himself. His only disadvantage would be his youth and smaller build. Give him a few more years and songs would eventually be song of the White Rose of the Kingsguard, Loras Tyrell.

As we see throughout this serious experience in battle is what helps develop a fighter's skills. Tourneys may be looked down on by the North but in times of peace they would be the only way for warriors to sharpen their skills minus becoming sellswords in essos. There is only so much raiding the wildings could be doing up north and that would only really affect the Umbers, Mormonts, Karstarks, and mountain clans. The southern territories probably don't see a lot of action.

[Artos Stark]

Ned was just an average warrior... He was a great genreal and ruler, tho.

What?! Not that I think Loras is on the Kingslayer's level, but Jaime himself recognizes he is a great swordsman, and that he reminds him of himself at a younger age. I think every single character in the series heighten Loras ability as a swordsman, when talking about him.

I REALLY don't recall anyone thinking anything similar of Jon Snow... He is good enough, but Loras would defeat him easily, if Ghost wasn't involved in the fight.

He recognizes Loras' jousting skills, not his skill with a sword. Loras reminds him of himself in his attitude and arrogance but not in his skill. He basically tells Loras that he's not on his level as a swordsman, at a younger age he was faster stronger and far more skilled than Loras is now.

Loras has never really faced any good swordsman that we know of. Jon has crossed swords with the Halfhand, Iron Emmett and Mance Rayder plus more. We see towards the end of the books that he is becoming really extremely skilled with a sword, his only problem is his strength and endurance which come with age, this is pointed out when he fights Mance. I would take Jon over Loras one on one with a sword any day honestly.

[Lord Warhammer]

Ned was just an average warrior... He was a great genreal and ruler, tho.

What?! Not that I think Loras is on the Kingslayer's level, but Jaime himself recognizes he is a great swordsman, and that he reminds him of himself at a younger age. I think every single character in the series heighten Loras ability as a swordsman, when talking about him.

I REALLY don't recall anyone thinking anything similar of Jon Snow... He is good enough, but Loras would defeat him easily, if Ghost wasn't involved in the fight.

In all fairness no one outside the Nights Watch or wildlings have seen Jon's Prowess with a sword. It is likely to go the other way. No one from the Nights watch has ever seen Loras in action either. Loras is a tourney knight, a knight of summer and "Winter is coming" to quote Catelyn

[MagnusPrime]

A Jon vs. Loras match may actually be pretty good to watch. Especially if Jon hulked out.

One would have to wonder just how would some of the elite of the NW have rated up against some of the best swords in the realm.

[Theon The Hungry Wolf]

More pertinently, IIRC Bronze Yohn was able to best both Ned and Ser Rodrik together at practice. Clearly Rodrik is no slouch, and clearly Ned is no slouch. Yet equally Bronze Yohn is no Barristan the Bold, Jaime Lainnister or Ser Arthur Dayne. So Ned can't be particularly great on that evidence.

Please tell me where to find this info, I have heard someone else reference this yet have seen no mention of this in the books.

[Son of the Smiling Knight]

Ned Stark was a great warrior, he just wasn't on the Legendary status of other men he fought with and against. Though Dayne, Selmy, and Jaime are on another level all together.

[Theon The Hungry Wolf]

The North has a lower population density than the southern kingdoms and coupled with its size it was probably very rare for them to have their bannermen visit. So outside of siblings, wards, or men at arms the Stark children would actually not have a very diverse group of opponents to spar with.

A nice way for the Lords of Winterfell to develop a large strong core of trained soldiers for the defense of the North would be to start a military academy. Have the sons of his bannermen come to Winterfell and train with no only his sons and men-at-arms but other young men from across the kingdoms.

Cregan Stark, Lord of Winterfell in the time of Aegon IV, was described as the best swordsman Prince Aemon the dragonknight had ever faced. They are skilled warriors, just as much as the southerners.

[Ariodante]

I don't think there is any evidence in the books that would indicate Ned was a great swordsman. Although he did defeat Ser Arthur Dayne, it was after five of his own men and the other kingsguard were slain. Ned himself said that he would have been killed by Dayne if it weren't for Howland Reed. It's reasonable to think Ned was a more than capable swordsman but probably not GREAT.

[sisterwolf]

I always saw Ned as the Faramir to Brandon's Boromir (ironic, considering the actor who plays him). Brandon was better but also much more enthusiastic about fighting. Ned was at heart a more peaceful man who quickly retired to be a father and a lord. His toughness comes in large part from his sense of honor and sacrifice and in his very Northern "do not trifle with me" air.

In Sansa's memory, she was old enough to be recognizable, so Ned was probably a father to several kids and out of practice when he fought Bronze Yohn. We're talking about the prowess of a younger Ned here. There's no evidence to suggest he gets much more exercise after the Rebellion than beheading deserters and banging Cat.

Saying he was potentially a great warrior near equal to the legends does not make people crazed Stark Apologetics. It's reading comprehension. He was able to keep up with Dayne and Jaime even if he was not quite their equal, and it was implied that while he did not win tourneys he was among the top and honored fighters. He was certainly respected during and after the Rebellion. He had skill, and probably could have been great, but he didn't care for glory.