Why isn't Ned considered a great swordsman by those in Westeros?

[Lucamore the Lusty]

Ned doesn't show off. He's a self effacing man who was raised to be his elder brother's strong right arm. He's the Stark's version of Kevin Lannister. Fate and Mad Areys changed that for him, but he's still reserved. He very well could have let Bronze Yohn win at their sparing (Ser Rodrick could have too) just so he wouldn't display any overachieving skills that could expose his true abilities. Also, its not polite to beat your guest too much, whether at cyrvasse or swordplay. Ned would have considered it rude of himself to do so, and Bronze Yohn seems to be a man that would be easily offended if he was embarrassed in the yard.

Ned could suck at sword fighting for all we know or he could be the best in the world. We just don't know and that's the way he wanted it.

[Summer is Ending]

Ned doesn't show off. He's a self effacing man who was raised to be his elder brother's strong right arm. He's the Stark's version of Kevin Lannister. Fate and Mad Areys changed that for him, but he's still reserved. He very well could have let Bronze Yohn win at their sparing (Ser Rodrick could have too) just so he wouldn't display any overachieving skills that could expose his true abilities. Also, its not polite to beat your guest too much, whether at cyrvasse or swordplay. Ned would have considered it rude of himself to do so, and Bronze Yohn seems to be a man that would be easily offended if he was embarrassed in the yard.

Ned could suck at sword fighting for all we know or he could be the best in the world. We just don't know and that's the way he wanted it.

Good lord. Bronze Yohn beat his ass and there was no pretending about it. He's a huge man with a repuation in the tournaments. He's a great fighter and he showed it without Ned and Ser Rodrik having to play games about it. Men practiced in the yard to stay sharp and get better not soothe egos. If Ned and Ser Rodrik were to do that kind of bullshit they're definitely not half the quality I think of them as.

And Bronze Yohn doesn't seem that way at all. He's a warrior, if there's someone better than him he's the kind of man that wants to know it so he can train against him and improve. You don't get better fighting weaker opponents.

There is always someone quicker and stronger, Ser Rodrik had once told Jon and Robb. He’s the man you want to face in the yard before you need to face his like upon a battlefield.

[Lucamore the Lusty]

Good lord. Bronze Yohn beat his ass and there was no pretending about it. He's a huge man with a repuation in the tournaments. He's a great fighter and he showed it without Ned and Ser Rodrik having to play games about it. Men practiced in the yard to stay sharp and get better not soothe egos. If Ned and Ser Rodrik were to do that kind of bullshit they're definitely not half the quality I think of them as.

And Bronze Yohn doesn't seem that way at all. He's a warrior, if there's someone better than him he's the kind of man that wants to know it so he can train against him and improve. You don't get better fighting weaker opponents.

There is always someone quicker and stronger, Ser Rodrik had once told Jon and Robb. He’s the man you want to face in the yard before you need to face his like upon a battlefield.

No one said BY wasn't a great fighter, and perhaps he did beat the tar out of Ned and Rodrick; but that's not really the point. Ned's simply not a flashy guy in any way, shape or form. It's not far fetched to assume he doesn't show off; and so there's no way to conclude that Ned was either good, bad or average at sword fighting simply because BY beat him in a non-life or death situation. BY could be one of the greatest living sword fighters, he seems to have a good reputation for sword fighting.

[Shane the Llama]

No one said BY wasn't a great fighter, and perhaps he did beat the tar out of Ned and Rodrick; but that's not really the point. Ned's simply not a flashy guy in any way, shape or form. It's not far fetched to assume he doesn't show off; and so there's no way to conclude that Ned was either good, bad or average at sword fighting simply because BY beat him in a non-life or death situation. BY could be one of the greatest living sword fighters, he seems to have a good reputation for sword fighting.

It's not far-fetched to assume Ned didn't show off; it is far-fetched to reach the conclusion you have. There is no reason to believe Ned allowed himself to be defeated in his sparring with Bronze Yohn. The information in the books must be twisted beyond the point of reason in order to believe that Ned was a great swordsman.

[Thendel]

It's not far-fetched to assume Ned didn't show off; it is far-fetched to reach the conclusion you have. There is no reason to believe Ned allowed himself to be defeated in his sparring with Bronze Yohn. The information in the books must be twisted beyond the point of reason in order to believe that Ned was a great swordsman.

This.

Ned was an average swordsman, and that's that. The only thing the OP presents as proof of him being better is the notion that we know exactly how Dayne was killed, and that's wrong, because we don't. We don't even know if Ned actually dealt the blow that felled Dayne!

[Summer is Ending]

This.

Ned was an average swordsman, and that's that. The only thing the OP presents as proof of him being better is the notion that we know exactly how Dayne was killed, and that's wrong, because we don't. We don't even know if Ned actually dealt the blow that felled Dayne!

That's not what the op is asking about though. S/he's asking about reputation and it's valid enough to wonder.

and Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husband’s soldiers. They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys’s Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat.

That doesn't mean Ned killed Dayne in single combat, that means his men think it and if they were telling tales they didn't wait until they reached Winterfell to start. They were probably bragging about their young lord in every tavern they were at in the south waiting to come back north.

[RumHam]

I'm guessing that Ned circa Tower of Joy was a far better fighter than Ned circa Yohan's visit/the start of the books. He probably didn't spend much time training in his later years.

[corbon]

Bronze Yohn Royce, not Lyn Corbray, beat Ned.

Is it ever specifically stated that Ned killed Dayne? I always imagined it as Dayne about to kill Ned then Howlands attacks him from behind.

No it is not. Ned's men (who were not present) whisper it as a rumour. That is all.

Please tell me where to find this info, I have heard someone else reference this yet have seen no mention of this in the books.

Its been quoted in this thread already. I don't know the chapter reference, apparently a Sansa chapter. BYR hammers Ned to the ground and turns to defeat Ser Rodrik as well, indicating that he had fought them both at once and beaten them handily.

Ned is nowhere in the books represented as anything of a swordsman. Show Ned is different, because TV fans are generally less sophisticated and need that.

[KingOfTheRats]

No it is not. Ned's men (who were not present) whisper it as a rumour. That is all.

Its been quoted in this thread already. I don't know the chapter reference, apparently a Sansa chapter. BYR hammers Ned to the ground and turns to defeat Ser Rodrik as well, indicating that he had fought them both at once and beaten them handily.

Ned is nowhere in the books represented as anything of a swordsman. Show Ned is different, because TV fans are generally less sophisticated and need that.

Besides the TOJ rumors they did say Ned killed like three good knights when he saved Robert from JC during that battle(i forgot where). Besides that i don't think they mention anything good about him fighting wise. I don't believe he was a jamie lannister by any means but i like to think in his prime before he raised a family he was a pretty good( not amazing)but that he could hold his own pretty well against most guys. He did grow up training with Robert who is pretty good and don't they say the northmen in general are really good swordsman/fighters? or is that just them saying that like when Jorry tells Arya a northmen is worth 10 of any southern men? either way Ned is the man

[Zacker]

Ned doesn't show off. He's a self effacing man who was raised to be his elder brother's strong right arm. He's the Stark's version of Kevin Lannister. Fate and Mad Areys changed that for him, but he's still reserved. He very well could have let Bronze Yohn win at their sparing (Ser Rodrick could have too) just so he wouldn't display any overachieving skills that could expose his true abilities. Also, its not polite to beat your guest too much, whether at cyrvasse or swordplay. Ned would have considered it rude of himself to do so, and Bronze Yohn seems to be a man that would be easily offended if he was embarrassed in the yard.

Ned could suck at sword fighting for all we know or he could be the best in the world. We just don't know and that's the way he wanted it.

Good lord. Bronze Yohn beat his ass and there was no pretending about it. He's a huge man with a repuation in the tournaments. He's a great fighter and he showed it without Ned and Ser Rodrik having to play games about it. Men practiced in the yard to stay sharp and get better not soothe egos. If Ned and Ser Rodrik were to do that kind of bullshit they're definitely not half the quality I think of them as.

And Bronze Yohn doesn't seem that way at all. He's a warrior, if there's someone better than him he's the kind of man that wants to know it so he can train against him and improve. You don't get better fighting weaker opponents.

There is always someone quicker and stronger, Ser Rodrik had once told Jon and Robb. He’s the man you want to face in the yard before you need to face his like upon a battlefield.

I don't know what GRRM knows about fighting. But practice is just practice. It bears very little on a live situation. This is true for most activities but strongly so for fighting. Forget about practive yards and tourneys. There are rules and conventions there and it's not the real thing. Although several boxing champions for example have been known for being poor in sparring and some were even sparring poorly on purpose the not-showing-off mentality isn't a necessary condition for bad practice performances. Anyway, lets forget about Bronze Yohn in the practice yard.

An example is Jorah Mormont's fight with Qotho. He won, not just with luck but because Qotho was too reckless - one opening is enough and Jorah took it. Judging from Dany's POV, surely Qotho might have bested Jorah in sparring had they been doing that, but they weren't and Qotho's dead.

If we want to assess the proficiency of someone we do that based on the real thing. We don't see any fighting by Ned except for that time when he breaks his leg in KL and the story about the TOJ. He didn't seem to earn a reputation as a great swordsman, despite fighting in more than one war. So either he didn't do much of it or he wasn't good enough to be considered great. But he was confident enough to go up against three of the best proffesional fighters with a 7 to 3 advantage. So surely not bad.

So why didn't he get a reputation as a swordsman from the TOJ incident seeing that Reed isn't thought of as a fighter either? I can think of many possibilities that doesn't involve Ned being average but I'll spare you all.

Those who have good reputations in the books, are they generally participating in tourneys?

[Contemplative Brother]

I think to gain a reputation as a great swordsman in Westeros you would either have to do something indisputably heroic on a battlefield with a sword, like when Barristan Selmy killed Maelys the Monstrous in single combat, or you have to compete in and win a lot of tourney melees. We know Ned never really cared about tournaments, and while he fought on the Trident, he evidently didn't kill anyone famous in the battle.

This has been endlessly discussed on other threads, but it's not clear if the events of the Tower of Joy are widely known.

As for the whispers among his men, it would appear that Ned Stark never confirmed or denied them. In any case, these rumors might not be as widely circulated in the South. It is odd that Ned never gave Howland Reed more credit in public for (apparently) saving him from Arthur Dayne, but the Tower of Joy was probably a subject Ned Stark preferred not to discuss.

[Erkan12]

[corbon]

So why didn't he get a reputation as a swordsman from the TOJ incident seeing that Reed isn't thought of as a fighter either? I can think of many possibilities that doesn't involve Ned being average but I'll spare you all.

Its very simple - no one else knows what went down at ToJ. The only thing anyone other than HR knows is that Ned disappeared with 6 companions and returned with 1 companion and Arthur Dayne's sword. Thats it.

[Artos Stark]

I dont doubt that Ned Killed Dayne. I don't think he's a great swordsman though, Martin even said he was average.