Rereading Tyrion IV (ASOS)

[Elba the Intoner]

One other thing I noticed in this chapter is that a Tyrell was supposed to be made Grand Maester and sent to KL to be on the small council. How convenient for the Tyrells that would have been.

[DrunkSister]

One other thing I noticed in this chapter is that a Tyrell was supposed to be made Grand Maester and sent to KL to be on the small council. How convenient for the Tyrells that would have been.

So much for citadel being independent from the Iron Throne and great houses. :) But I wonder if they did it because Tyrels bid them or of their own volition, because Tyrels' star was on the rise [not that we can know either way...]

[Uncat]

If I was to summarize this chapter, it would be like this:

From AGOT althrough ACOK we see Tyrion searching his place in the family. This chapter shows him, that he has no place there but is just tolerated and provided for. Tywin treats him like a lord would treat a bastard son wich he is keeping around not out of love to the son but out of love for the mother.

The bastard gets a job, an income and a comfortable marriage with a problem child from another high house. The bastard gets the stuff but not the love and never the name.

Once you view Tyrion as his father treats him: as a twisted guy raised within the family but not really part of it, Tyrion shows a lot of parallels to Jon or - even more so - to Theon.

Like Theon, he grows up like a brother to the lord's heir. They are best friends. But like Theon, Tyrion has no legitimid place in the family. Like Theon he goes through great lenghs to show himself worth that place. But eventually he goes up against this family and tries to take by force what he can't get by law and love.

But I have gone far enough back and ahead.

Sticking to this chapter:

Tyrion has the name, but nothing else. The chapter strips Tyrion of everything. His office, his power, his glory. And in the final exchange it strips him of his inheritance and his father declares him a bastard. Not by laws of man by some higher laws. Thus Tywin empties even the name and leaves it a shell.

So it is a rebirth: The heir of the Rock is reborn a bastard without a family. While in this chapter at the beginning of the book this is only emotionaly true, Tyrion will have made it come literaly true by the end of the book. Tywin hands out the judgement. Tyrion executes it.

And here is a fun fact: In this chapter Tywin absolutes Tyrion from the sin of kinslaying. Tyvin implies that by higher laws Tyrion is no son of his. This means nothing else but that in the face of the gods Tyrion did not kill his father but just an old lord, who happened to rais him reluctantly.

[Uncat]

Just two thought on Tyrion's clothing in this scene. He basicaly wears a long white shirt and nothing else. So this is...

A ... a babtism ceremony: Tyrion is named a bastard.

B ... the convict in the face of execution

C ... the sinner in his last gown raised from his eternal sleep to face The Lord in the last judgement.

I like all three images, but the third is the one I like best. After all, when we enter the room, we met Lord Tywin playing God: With the stroke of a quill he decides the fortune of the North, throws down a king and ends the life of thousands.

Edit: darn typos, darn iphone.

[Elba the Intoner]

So much for citadel being independent from the Iron Throne and great houses. :) But I wonder if they did it because Tyrels bid them or of their own volition, because Tyrels' star was on the rise [not that we can know either way...]

Yeah we'll probably never know for sure but, given what I know now about the Tyrells, I lean towards they somehow let the Citadel know that appointing a Tyrell would be good for them. They have a lot of influence in Old Town and at the Citadel.

[Uncat]

I have just been reading the last bits of Tyrion III and am very sad, that I missed it. Lykos, "Der Zwerg" had me almost crying. Didn't know it and love the connection.

And Lykos, I like the parallels to Arya (you know how I love my twisted girl). He fell out of society and that detached him from his moral compass. But while Arya was shoved out and then just shrugged and pocketed her compass to go and act, Tyrion grew up in this situation. He has kept his compass as an usefull instrument.

He still knows, what is right and wrong. But being outside the normal, he feels the freedom to act as he sees fit. Actually he has developed a very sensitiv moral compass. It gives him this fascinating power to sense, what the right action in a given situation would be (as in the confrontation with Robb, when he comes up with the saddle).

His contept for Sansa on the other hand is not steered by this compass, I suppose. This is a completly different thing and feed from two sources. The one is the constant confrontation with Cersei. By interfering with Joffreys treatment of Sansa he anoys her. The other is real compassion. He knows, how she feels, because he knows the reproach, the loneliness and how the teasing hurts from his own life.

[DrunkSister]

This is the point in the story perhaps where we can start looking for hints of Shae being in Tywin's employ.

[Lummel]

If you want to throw down the gauntlet and give us that argument with what proofs you can find then don't be shy! Please feel free to do so :)

[DrunkSister]

None for now, but I am suspicious that she is so unconcerned about her own safety, Alayaya being whipped and sent naked a short while ago.

Second thing is Varys not telling Tywin about Shae - why would we believe he didn't just because Shae is still alive? Tywin lies and so does Varys.

I just feel there is a lot more going on than what Tyrion knows.

[Lummel]

That there are more things in heaven and earth, Tyrion, than are dreamt of in your philosophy is obviously true but on it's own I feel is no basis for a theory.

Keep your eyes open and tell us what you think. I've seen some posters and I think Ragnorak may have suggested this too, that a connection between Tywin and Shae might go back to AGOT. I don't think so myself, Shae very probably doesn't know about Alayaya. The whipping happens in Tyrion XII ACOK. Shae is presumably working for Lollys by then - is she even aware of what happened to Alayaya?

I assume that ultimately Varys does deliver up Shae, but who knows when that occurs. What does he gain from telling Tywin before the purple wedding? How does giving up that piece of information help him?

[DrunkSister]

It is not every day that a girl is whipped and sent naked from the castle I hope! Shae might not know the reason it happened (the rumor mill must have been interesting).

I don't think Shae was working for Tywin since AGOT not because the evidence is inconclusive (evidence for LF plotting The Ned's death is also inconclusive) but because Bronn would probably be on it as well, and because their behavior in the books can be better explained if they don't.

What does he gain from telling Tywin before the purple wedding? How does giving up that piece of information help him?

How would Tywin react if Varys doesn't tell him until after the purple wedding? I don't understand most of what Tywin says and does but somehow I doubt he will be in the forgiving mood or that he will believe Varys 'only then' found out.

IMO he hasn't told anything to Tywin yet because it is only reasonable to delay and complain what a difficult job that would be and how very few people are able to perform it ('I know where she was, but she dissapeared before the battle, I will look carefully, my Lord' etc.) it makes his service look more valuable when he finally does. But lets keep our eyes open, there might be hints that he did it.

So far, evidence of Varys is manipulating both Tyrion and Shae:

Varys finds a more suitable cover for Shae than Tyrion had*. - he can pretend that he understands her plight and wants to help her.

The night Alayaya is shown to Tyrion Varys brings Shae. - Yuck, what was the motive?

"Janos Slynt’s sons would gladly inform on you to avenge their father, and our sweet Lord Petyr has friends in half the brothels of King’s Landing. Should you be so unwise as to visit any of them, he will know at once, and your lord father soon thereafter.”

- this is interesting because it is not what Tywin said. Tywin said 'in Tyrion's bed', theoretically whores in their own beds are fine, as 'don't bring her to King's Landing' also suggests. Varys is manipulating Tyrion against replacing Shae.

“But where? There is no safe place.”

“There is.” Tyrion grinned.“Here. It’s time to put that rock-hard bed of yours to better use, I think.”

The eunuch’s mouth opened. Then he giggled.

-->

“My lord.” A woman sidled into the light; plump, soft, matronly, with a round pink moon of a face and heavy dark curls. Tyrion recoiled.“Is something amiss?” she asked.

Varys avenges his bedroom!

She put her hands over his eyes from behind.“Can you guess what I’m wearing?”

- Hint that Varys sugested he frightens Tyrion and Shae comes naked from behind, this also serves to hide how Varys retreats. Proof of cooperation!

"...I asked Varys if I could have them when you were hurt in the battle, but he wouldn’t give them to me. What would have become of them if you’d died?”

- I checked, Tyrion said he will keep her jewels in his rooms for when she visits, he never made arrangements in case of his death. So Varys has his hands clean in this case, he literally has no right to pay Shae, not even if Tyrion dies. He can still play the part of her 'friend'. Btw, when Tywin moved in, wtf happened to the stuff?

*While ingratiating himself to Lady Tanda at the same time, he is truly a wizard! :)

[Lummel]

The only gossip that seems to circulate in the Red Keep is about sex and marriage. Shae knows about the Sansa marriage in advance (this is the next chapter for us to read) and lots of people know that Tyrion hasn't consummated his marriage (this is in the chapter after next). At the same time Sansa is beaten, Alayaya is whipped, Tommen has his whipping boy, but none of these ever seem to be chatted about. I'd suggest that violence is sufficiently regular for it to be unremarkable.

Secondly why should Shae link the Alayaya whipping to herself. She wasn't present at the dinner and unless somebody repeats the jist of Cersei's words to her there's no linkage. Further even if there was we see in Tyrion X ACOK that Shae suggests that Tyrion just has Cersei killed or that he just defies his father. In fact the outcome of Tyrion XII seems to bear out that Shae wasn't entirely naive since Tyrion demonstrated that nothing is a real cool hand when he stands his ground.

I don't think its a problem for Varys to deliver Shae late in the day because as he has the best intelligence network, possibly the only intelligence network, nobody can prove that he was definitely holding back information and even if they have their suspicions his usefulness has successfully outweighed his willfulness since the reign of Aerys II.

I agree entirely that Varys is manipulating Tyrion and he can certainly manipulate Shae whenever he wants. It's a fair question to wonder what happened to Shae's gowns and jewels, presumably they were shifted out to Tyrion new lodgings since Tyrion doesn't remark on anything being missing and he's quick enough to complain about everything else!

ETA I'll ramble on for a bit here:

There doesn't seem to be any evidence for or against an early Tywin / Shae connection that I've seen but I dislike the idea and particularly the idea of rolling back a connection to AGOT because it establishes the Holy Church of Tyrion - Innocent Victim.

If Shae and Tywin are connected from AGOT then when Tywin says if you take your whore to court I'll hang her (or similar wording) he is essentially tempting poor little Tyrion like the serpent in the garden of Eden and when Shae calls Tyrion her Giant of Lannister then from the very first she is leading him on like a new Eve intent on the downfall and destruction of the little man.

We no longer have independent Tyrion getting himself into trouble through deluding himself and poor decisions we have a huge and cunning honey trap designed to get Tyrion into a sticky situation from the first. That's great if you want to argue that Tyrion is an innocent victim and should be absolved from responsibility for the deaths of Shae and Tywin, justified by his melancholy in ADWD and fated to rise, erect in glory in TWOW. It's absolutely terrible from the point of view of seeing Tyrion as a complex character capable of intelligence and stupidity, obedient and disobedient to his Father out of their conflicted relationship. That's the picture I prefer, but like I said, I think it is open to interpretation. :)

[Ragnorak]

I had floated the idea that since Tywin was aware of Shae back at the end of GoT and that it might be possible, given she ends up in his bed, that his interest might stretch that far back. I don't think it floats. Neither Shae or Tywin do or say anything that might indicate any connection or relationship between them prior to Tyrion's trial. Shae seems pretty intent on playing Tyrion as her meal ticket. She does react to finding out about Tysha but I think it was more of an insight into how to manipulate Tyrion (and why her prior attempts had been less successful than she thought they ought to be.) I'm sure the information helped her size up Tywin to end up in his bed, but beyond that I don't see anything to indicate any connection before Tyrion's trial. Certainly nothing in the chapters we've covered so far.

I agree that Varys is manipulating both of them, but I'd agree to any statement that Varys is manipulating anyone but Illyrio (and I'd be open to an Illyrio theory too.)

[A wilding]

On whether Shae knew why Alayaya was whipped: I imagine that Tywin is not going to want the story that Tyrion threatened Tommen being spread about - visible splits in House Lannister are likely to be anathema to him. Still he might not mind too much the knowledge that Tyrion has been banned from using whores leaking out.

However it seems Shae does not know, because her actions would make no sense. If she knew, she would surely be trying to get some sort of pay off from Tyrion so she could get out of town, instead of trying to get him to set her up in an establishment again.

[the Scorpion Knight]

On whether Shae knew why Alayaya was whipped: I imagine that Tywin is not going to want the story that Tyrion threatened Tommen being spread about - visible splits in House Lannister are likely to be anathema to him. Still he might not mind too much the knowledge that Tyrion has been banned from using whores leaking out.

this must be the proff that he is totally blind to his own family

how blind is he not to see the rift between cersei and tyrion and the inability to stick together when everything is at stake

[A wilding]

I think that Tywin realises by ASoS that Cersei is not to be trusted with power. At the risk of getting ahead of the reread, he is planning to neutralise her. He is also taking steps with Tyrion, banning whores, plus again there is more to come.

[DrunkSister]

Still he might not mind too much the knowledge that Tyrion has been banned from using whores leaking out.

IMO he has only banned him from bringing whores to the Keep. Not going to them.

Varys tells Tyrion that Tywin will kill all the whores he f***s. That does not make it true.

.........

I wonder what Shae could possibly think of Varys. She thinks she has a measure of him when he appears masked, but that is only recognition. Is she on his payroll?

[butterbumps!]

Hey all. Between work and dragging my heels on this specific chapter, this post is long overdue, so my apologies. This chapter is a monster, so I'm posting in two parts (the first half is now 6 pages, down from 12). I'll post the analysis for part 2 shortly, but wanted to get this started off because there's so much going on.

Tyrion III

overview

The entire chapter takes place over a few hours in the council chambers. Tywin and Tyrion sit at either end of the table, flanked by Cersei, Pycelle, Mace Tyrell, Paxter Redwyne, Varys, Kevan, the High Septon and Littlefinger. After discussing the affairs of the realm, the four Lannisters remain and discuss other matters more privately, including the need for Cersei to remarry, as well as Tyrion’s marriage to Sansa.

affairs of the realm summary

This is our first look at the Small Council after the Battle, and as such, this chapter is a huge infodump. Here’s what we learn:

Varys informs the council that Robett Glover was defeated outside of Duskendale by Randall Tarly; Glover is retreating back toward Harrenhal, where he will be cut off by Gregor’s men. We know that Roose gave orders to Glover and Tallhart to attack at Duskendale.

Kevan brings up the issue of the Greyjoys. Balon has written to the throne, offering aid in the war against the Starks in exchange for recognition as King in the North. Redwyne and Tyrell suggest that they should accept this offer.

Tywin brings up Lysa. Redwyne and Tyrell suggest to let her be, but Tywin says that he has an idea to bring the Vale into an alliance through LF. With Lannister blessing LF, the new Lord of Harrenhal, will wed Lysa and keep the Vale pliant. The point is clearly made that he will be on his way to the Vale immediately, and will therefore miss the Joff-Marg wedding.

Tyrion is made master of coin, which was LF’s suggestion behind the scenes.

Redwyne re-opens the Greyjoy discussion, pushing for the alliance for the sake of augmenting the fleet against Stannis. Tywin disagrees, asking why she they give up half the kingdom for what they are already doing for free. He suggests they do nothing about the Greyjoys for the meantime, as “a better option may present itself. One that does not require the king to give up half his kingdom.” Tyrion picks up on the importance of these sentences, and immediately recalls the letters Tywin was writing the night he came to see his father: “Some battles are won with swords and spears, others with quills and ravens…” We know this is referring to the Red Wedding.

In discussing Joff’s wedding, the subject of 300 invited Dornishmen is broached, at which Tyrell bristles. Tywin assures Tyrell that Doran is both a guest and new council member, invited to create a super-alliance between all the families.

Then they go through the business of dividing the spoils of the battle. The Tyrells receive the largest portion of spoils—castles and lands from dead men and traitors who fought for Stannis.

Finally, Varys gives a strange report:

A literal Kraken attacked an Ibbenese whaling ship

Fighting on the Stepstones

War between Tyrosh and Lys, with Myr likely to join

A “three-headed” dragon in Qarth

No sign of Tyrek

“Disturbing” messages from the Wall of wildlings astir

analysis part 1: small council

“The game changed, and no one will tell me the rules.”

The chapter begins with Tyrion’s detached but implicitly admiring observations of his father’s entrance. Tywin enters the chambers regally, exchanging greetings with all present parties except for Tyrion as he makes his way to the table. Tywin takes the king’s seat at the head of the table; without even taking this chair, it is clear that Tywin is the de facto king while in court. Tyrion takes over Pycelle’s former seat at the opposite end of the table, once again connecting Tyrion symbolically with the role of the maester.

Propped up on cushions so that Tyrion could “gaze down the length of the table,” he observes the new faces, and we get a brief overview of how new and old fit into place. Pycelle is now weak and broken, pathetic looking; “Tyrion gazed at him without remorse.” Cersei was “all charm and flirting,” as she spoke with the new lords about wedding arrangements, which is a considerable departure from her behavior in past small council meetings. The new lords—Tyrell, Rowan and Redwyne— had been “courteous enough,” though Tyrion notes that they have trouble looking at him. When Tyrell and Redwyne praise Tyrion’s efforts in the battle, Tyrion’s bitterness gets the best of him: “Tell it to the people of this city. Tell it to the bloody singers, with their song’s of Renly’s ghost.” Kevan is notably the warmest to Tyrion, speaking kindly to him and even kissing his cheek.

Incompetents, Fools and Predators

The council meeting is extremely dense and nuanced. I highly recommend a reread, because there are layers and layers of both plot and character development happening, which proved too much for this single post. To prevent complete unwieldiness, here is my highly digested take on the dynamic of the council meeting.

Tyrion is very much an observer at this meeting; he mostly remains silent in the scene. His thoughts also add layers to the unfolding scene by providing a great deal of context and editorial on the unfamiliar characters to enhance our perspective and guide us to see the “long con” Tywin is running here. He’s the readers’ ears, eyes, and tour guide, but in the few instances he speaks, he’s also our conscience and voice, as his words try to navigate a seemingly reasonable and sympathetic path between the variously foolish and merciless positions of the others.

In this part of the chapter particularly, Tyrion appears singularly sympathetic, brought into relief by his being surrounded by characters set up as fools and predators. I think this is critical, because I believe it informs the tone of the second half of the chapter, in which he agrees to marry Sansa. For brevity, I’m going to extract what I believe are the 3 most important developments in the discussion (excluding the clues about the RW, which were addressed above).

The Vale + LF

This is the first time Tyrion is moved to participate at the meeting. When Tywin brings up the issue of Lysa, the other lords simply want to leave her be, believing she’s not a potential threat. Tyrion, however, reminds them of the insult Lysa committed to him and his House, adding “Nor has she returned to KL to swear fealty to Joff, as she was commanded. My lords, grant me the men and I will sort out Lysa Arryn.” Tyrell jovially laughs the suggestion off, but before Tyrion can continue, Tywin announces that he has other tasks in mind for Tyrion, and that “Lord Petyr may hold the key to the Eyrie.”

The plan for LF to wed Lysa is announced, and LF lays out how this will work. He admits to sleeping with Lysa for years, and believes that as the newly appointed Lord of Harrenhal, he is now in a position for such a match to be made. Tyrion, who has increasingly grown to distrust LF, sits back and thinks, “Lord of Harrenhal an empty honor? Bugger that, Father. Even if he never sets foot in the castle, the title makes this match possible, as he’s known all along.”

When Kevan seconds LF’s plan, all the pieces fall together for Tyrion: “It has all been settled beforehand, and this discussion’s no more than a show.” Not realizing that the whole conversation was a set=up, the other lords were “bleating their agreement, unaware of how neatly they’d been shorn, so it fell to Tyrion to object.” Tyrion’s reward for his objections result in his being named Master of Coin as LF’s replacement; his concerns about LF are dismissed, and the lords turn to seeing LF off on his mission.

Vengeance for Elia

I think this is a particularly good example of Tyrion’s articulating what we’re thinking/ snarking. The subject of 300 Dornishmen who will be attending the wedding is brought up, leading to objections from the Reach lords, who harbor long-standing hostilities with the Dorne. Tyrion is like a kid in a candy store, excitedly wondering how his father would try to smooth this one over.

Tywin actually succeeds, with this hilarious pitch: “Prince Doran comes at my son’s invitation, not only to join in our celebration, but to claim his seat on the council, and the justice Robert denied him for the murder of his sister Elia and her children.” I find Tyrion’s next thoughts to be priceless: “[he] watched the faces of the Lords Tyrell, Redwyne and Rowan, wondering if any of the three would be bold enough to say, ‘But Lord Tywin, wasn’t it you who presented the bodies to Robert, all wrapped in Lannister cloaks?’” Oh, I do wish one of those Reach fellows would have said that.

Shared crabs

I think that this is a pinnacle of sympathetic moments for Tyrion here. The issue of how to handle the Gold Cloaks who fled is brought up, and Cersei wants them killed. Varys, interestingly enough, suggests that they are sent to the NW, as there have been “disturbing messages from the Wall of late. Of Wildlings astir…” Tywin, by contrast, has plans to break their kneecaps (ok, seriously, this guy isn’t Michael Corleone). Then Tyrion has a touching passage:

Tyrion remembered his own visit to the Wall, and the crabs he’d shared with the old Lord Mormont and his officers. He remembered the Old Bear’s fears as well. “Perhaps we might break the knees of a few to make our point. Those who killed Ser Jacelyn, say. The rest we can send to Marsh. The Watch is grievously under strength. If the Wall should fail…”

Tywin rejects Tyrion’s suggestion forcibly. Tywin has no intention of helping the Watch: “King robb and King Balon both claim the north. Let them defend it, if they can. And if not, this Mance Rayder might even prove a useful ally.” (Mance a useful Lannister ally :lmao: ). There are sometimes debates on the forum about the extent to which the Lannisters would be cooperative with the Watch. I think this except answers that question pretty admirably.

[Lummel]

...The plan for LF to wed Lysa is announced, and LF lays out how this will work. He admits to sleeping with Lysa for years, and believes that as the newly appointed Lord of Harrenhal, he is now in a position for such a match to be made. Tyrion, who has increasingly grown to distrust LF, sits back and thinks, “Lord of Harrenhal an empty honor? Bugger that, Father. Even if he never sets foot in the castle, the title makes this match possible, as he’s known all along.”...

In terms of discussing Lord Baelish's character I find this section noteworthy - he does admits so much as boast of sleeping with Lisa, which is quite remarkable. Does any other character in ASOIAF boast in a similar situation about sleeping with a highborn lady and ensuring that they don't go a virgin to their marriage bed?

Not exactly the mark of a socially considerate lover! This does come across as an over compensating bit of crotch display: 'hey! I'm more than a bean counter!'.

ETA just to expand on that point he totally destroys Lisa's chance of being able to return to court with that one statement doesn't he?

[A wilding]

Not exactly the mark of a socially considerate lover! This does come across as an over compensating bit of crotch display: 'hey! I'm more than a bean counter!'.

Absolutely. He made a similar boast to Tyrion in ACoK, and Tyrion basically didn't believe him. It does indeed come across as a bit pathetic, and a flaw in the otherwise more or less perfect image he presents to the world.