Stuff That's Confirmed/Hinted at in aWoIaF App, v.2

[Newstar]

Some people are taking the wrong approach on the information gleamed from the app. For one, I would not discount your personal theories about Loras and his fate. Quite clearly, the writer has been shrouding this entire topic in mystery for what has now been more than half a dozen years. He isn't simply going to reveal what has befallen Loras in an app. What we get is the official cover story that we have been getting since back in A Feast for Crows, much in the same way the app reports that Jon Snow is the son of Eddard Stark when that isn't true either.

Well, yes and no.

There are two sections to all the bios. The first lists basic information: aliases, parents, siblings, origin, place of birth, place of death. These contain information which seem to be false, if prevailing theories are true: Jon is not Eddard's son as his bio states, the Hound did not die (even though he has a place of death indicated), etc. etc. So stuff in the "basic information" heading? Grain of salt, absolutely. It makes sense: why give away that stuff in such an obvious way?

However, the second section, the longer section, provides a summary of what's happened to the character in the books, and this is where you need to read between the lines a little and where the good stuff gets going. These seem to be confirmations or denials: the Hound's long bio states that he was ministered to by the Elder Brother, who later reports to Brienne that the Hound is dead (paraphrased, but that's the upshot), which is consistent with him being alive. Loras' long bio states that he was gravely wounded and is near death. Jon's long bio states that he was stabbed repeatedly but not that he's dead. Robb's long bio states that his corpse is beheaded and that Catelyn is killed. And so on.

Anytime something is stated flat out in the long bio, it seems to be a confirmation/denial. Anytime there's a qualification: "news arrives that," "X reports," "X claims," "X is believed to be," "X appears to be," etc. etc., it seems to be a huge warning flag to pay attention, all is not as it seems.

For those who do get the App: the long bios for the POV characters are really, really interesting. It's very interesting to see what has been included in each major character's long bio and what's been omitted. I don't want to read too much into it, but it's very interesting stuff.

Oh, and for the "Petyr slept his way to the top" crowd from the last thread: his bio also attributes his meteoric rise in part to his frequent replacement of lordlings in royal officer positions with more skilled men from the merchant classes.

[Faint]

Anytime something is stated flat out in the long bio, it seems to be a confirmation/denial. Anytime there's a qualification: "news arrives that," "X reports," "X claims," "X is believed to be," "X appears to be," etc. etc., it seems to be a huge warning flag to pay attention, all is not as it seems.

I understand the point you are making but, really, this might be a slight oversight more than anything else. There is, after all, so much counter evidence that what has been told so far is not what really happened to Loras. I suppose it could all be a red herring, a treasured one at that, given all that the author has put into it. That said, even assuming that what happened to Loras is as reported and all the mystery surrounding this episode is truly a red herring, how likely is it the author would use an app to disabuse us of our notions?

[Newstar]

That said, even assuming that what happened to Loras is as reported and all the mystery surrounding this episode is truly a red herring, how likely is it the author would use an app to disabuse us of our notions?

Well, first of all, GRRM has occasionally shown himself willing to confirm or deny aspects of the story in interviews, or at least blow smoke ("Oh, you think [Jon's] dead, do you?"); I don't see that this is so very different, and it's probably a more elegant way of dispensing with the million crackpot theories floating around.

Second of all, it's interesting that certain long bios state things flat out (Quentyn dies of his injuries, Loras is gravely wounded), but when we start getting into the big question marks, the language gets a lot more coy: Ned claims that the baby is his bastard son, the Elder Brother reports that the Hound is dead, the rumours about Aegon surviving appear correct, and so on. It's very telling.

It's also telling to see how certain big quotes have been paraphrased in the long bios. The linchpin in the "Jaime (and Cersei) are Aerys' bastards" theory is Genna's quote "Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you," but in Genna's bio this is paraphrased as Genna saying "Tyrion is the child who most resembled [Tywin]." The description of Maggy the Frog's prophecy completely skips over any mention of the younger, beautiful queen, and paraphrases the "shrouds" bit as "Cersei will outlive her children."

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I understand the point you are making but, really, this might be a slight oversight more than anything else. There is, after all, so much counter evidence that what has been told so far is not what really happened to Loras. I suppose it could all be a red herring, a treasured one at that, given all that the author has put into it. That said, even assuming that what happened to Loras is as reported and all the mystery surrounding this episode is truly a red herring, how likely is it the author would use an app to disabuse us of our notions?

I gotta agree with Faint here. I think Loras' entry is based on the story up to that point, and for now, we're meant to think he's injured. Whereas, say, we might be meant to preemptively question some things, like whether Ramsay killed Stannis or Aegon is real, which could explain the more ambiguous woding.

[Miko]

Is there anything debunking that 'great winged serpent' seen in Bran's wolf dream as a dragon escaping Winterfell's siege?

Also Blood Raven as the Three Eyed Crow that you mentioned in the first page. I was told that Three Eyed Crow was missing from Blood Ravens aliases. Are you saying it confirms the Tree Man is Blood Raven, or it actually says Blood Raven is the Three Eyed Crow?

Nothing on the dragon that I have found as of yet.

The information given on Bloodraven confirms him as the tree man but never explicitly calls him the three-eyed crow

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

And while many crackpots have died as a result of the app, there might be room for one to thrive ...

... Rhaego's confirmed to be dead, or at least, it says that his life is traded for Drogo's (which nixes the idea that the horse's being was transferred to Drogo and that's why he was blank), his condition — scales and tail and whatnot — gets an "It is said ..." caveat.

Also confirms that he's the one who was supposed to be the Stallion Who Mounts the World. So there's the issue of whether the prophecy died with him or if it'll be fulfilled elsewhere.

It also treats Mirri's offer of aid to Drogo as being in good faith, and his wound festered because he didn't listen to her. Rhaego's death being done in "revenge" is also brought up again, but I don't see how Mirri would have known that Jorah would bring Dany into the tent. *shrugs*

[Faint]

Well, perhaps there is something to what Apple Martini is saying. The entries for Stannis and Aegon are written with qualifiers because characters themselves, within the story, are in doubt about the relevant issue in their biographies (i.e., whether Stannis is dead, whether Aegon is who he claims to be). Whereas, with Loras, does any character actually doubt the story that Cersei was fed? Kevin certainly doesn't. We as readers have come to question the fate of Loras of course but has any character done the same? The closest example is perhaps Cersei herself, when one of the septas lets slip a little bit too much information, but I still find it unlikely that she even begins to suspect a coverup. So perhaps that is the guiding principle here. When something is questioned even within story, say, the mother of Jon, then that gets a qualifier in the app. Alternatively, when something is questioned outside of the story but is taken as fact within the story, no qualifiers are provided for the relevant entries in the app.

[Newstar]

Well, perhaps there is something to what Apple Martini is saying. The entries for Stannis and Aegon are written with qualifiers because characters themselves, within the story, are in doubt about the relevant issue in their biographies (i.e., whether Stannis is dead, whether Aegon is who he claims to be). Whereas, with Loras, does any character actually doubt the story that Cersei was fed? Kevin certainly doesn't. We as readers have come to question the fate of Loras of course but has any character done the same? The closest example is perhaps Cersei herself, when one of the septas lets slip a little bit too much information, but I still find it unlikely that she even begins to suspect a coverup. So perhaps that is the guiding principle here. When something is questioned even within story, say, the mother of Jon, then that gets a qualifier in the app. Alternatively, when something is questioned outside of the story but is taken as fact within the story, no qualifiers are provided for the relevant entries in the app.

Well, this doesn't exactly work. For example, in the Hound's bio, there is ambiguous language used suggesting that the Hound is still alive. Brienne accepts that the Hound is dead, however (in fact, that's how we know she's lying when she lures Jaime away in ADWD...well, that and the Hound is nowhere near Sansa and would never kill her, but that's beside the point). So your analogy falls apart a little.

Besides, what's going to happen if and when it turns out that Loras was never gravely wounded and was never near death, meaning the bio for Loras is inaccurate and misleading? "Oh, that was just the best information the characters had at the time" won't exactly cut the mustard, especially since the other long bios go out of their way to give definitive answers (Robb, Cat, Quentyn) or, where needed, ambiguous ones (Jon).

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Besides, what's going to happen if and when it turns out that Loras was never gravely wounded and was never near death, meaning the bio for Loras is inaccurate and misleading? "Oh, that was just the best information the characters had at the time" won't exactly cut the mustard, especially since the other long bios go out of their way to give definitive answers (Robb, Cat, Quentyn) or, where needed, ambiguous ones (Jon).

It would probably simply be updated. Like how the information you get in the pack is adjusted based on the books you've read.

Given that no one has actually seen Loras since this alleged attack, I reserve the right to stay skeptical and think that GRRM is working a sleight here. If you're convinced that the app is confirmation that he is in fact gravely injured, you're welcome to think that.

[Newstar]

It would probably simply be updated. Like how the information you get in the pack is adjusted based on the books you've read.

It's possible, I suppose, but it strikes me as unlikely.

It is heartening to know there are so many fans on this board concerned over Loras Tyrell's wellbeing. Maybe I'm biased, because I never particularly liked him and therefore his horrible injury and likely death don't bother me as much as they might some.

On a related note, it's funny that certain things which strike me as highly significant plot/character points are not even mentioned, while other things I don't consider particularly significant are discussed at great length. Maybe I'm reading the books wrong? Ha!

[Dr. Pepper]

I'm going to remain cautious about the Loras thing. It doesn't match at all with what we glean from the books, yet the explicit language follows the app pattern of confirming certain things. Perhaps we can get Ran to chime in on this. I'm less bummed, but still highly cautious.

On the same note, does any cross-referencing reveal anything? Perhaps from other characters? Marg, Mace, Auranne, etc? Does the Bastard of Nightsong, Rollam Storm, even have a mention?

Warm, gooey cookies sent out to all of those who have access to the app and are willing and able to search and share.

[Newstar]

Dr. Pepper, Aurane's bio is pretty skimpy, although there appears to be (qualifiers, ha!) confirmation that he skedaddled with Cersei's ships.

As someone's already pointed out, Margaery's bio states that Renly "allegedly" never consummated the marriage. Littlefinger is convinced as of AFFC that Margaery is still a virgin, though. Margaery's bio and Olenna's seem to shift responsibility for and knowledge of Joffrey's murder on to Olenna.

Speaking of accuracies versus inaccuracies, Mace's bio states that his offer of Willas to Cersei was rejected. I know Cersei wasn't thrilled at the idea of marrying Willas, but wasn't it the other way around, with Olenna turning down Cersei for Willas on the basis that she was too old and used, or similar?

It's weird that characters like Minisa Whent get a bio and Ashara Dayne doesn't.

It's mentioned in Sansa's bio that Littlefinger "seems intent on teaching her how to manipulate men." Granted, there's the "seems" in there, but it's interesting that it reads "men" and not "others." More grist for the "Sansa as femme fatale" mill, I guess.

[Baela Targaryen]

The information given on Bloodraven confirms him as the tree man but never explicitly calls him the three-eyed crow

ADWD already confirmed that the tree man is the three-eyed crow.

From the glossary:

"-in the caverns beneath a hollow hill

-THE THREE-EYED CROW, also called THE LAST GREENSEER, sorcerer and

dreamwalker, once a man of the Night's Watch named BRYNDEN, now more tree than man"

[J. Stargaryen]

Near the end of the Mad King's bio it says:

Following the Sack of King's Landing... Viserys was declared king on Dragonstone. Nine turns of the moon later... Rhaella died giving birth to Daenerys Targaryen,...

So it appears as though Viserys was named king almost immediately after arriving at Dragonstone. I'd give the KG at the ToJ at least a 50/50 shot at having this information. Feel free to draw your own conclusions, I did. :)

Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell. “But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out.

ETA: The info above is found in Rhaella's section, not Aerys'. Also, I am entirely sure that Viserys was named king 'almost immediately after arriving at Dragonstone', as noted in post #397.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

ADWD already confirmed that the tree man is the three-eyed crow.

From the glossary:

"-in the caverns beneath a hollow hill

-THE THREE-EYED CROW, also called THE LAST GREENSEER, sorcerer and

dreamwalker, once a man of the Night's Watch named BRYNDEN, now more tree than man"

Indeed, right next to the reference to Jon as Rob's 'Half brother'.

EDIT: It's not next to it, i'm making mad funnies. I just can't help myself. COK appendix of Robb's Court.

[Baela Targaryen]

Indeed, right next to the reference to Jon as Rob's 'Half brother'.

EDIT: It's not next to it, i'm making mad funnies. I just can't help myself. COK appendix of Robb's Court.

There's also Meera's conversation with Coldhands:

"Meera's gloved hand tightened around the shaft of her frog spear. "Who sent you? Who is this three-eyed crow?" "A friend. Dreamer, wizard, call him what you will. The last greenseer."

[David Selig]

Apparently Jon/Lysa and Ned/Cat was a double wedding? Was that in the books? Awkward.

Yes, in Catelyn's first chapter in AGOT:

"And one day fifteen years ago, this second father had become a brother as well, as he and Ned stood together in the sept at Riverrun to wed two sisters, the daughters of Lord Hoster Tully."

Oh, and for the "Petyr slept his way to the top" crowd from the last thread: his bio also attributes his meteoric rise in part to his frequent replacement of lordlings in royal officer positions with more skilled men from the merchant classes.

This is not really new info, Tyrion thinks about it when he meets LF for the first time.

[Queen of Procrastination]

Regarding Syrio does it say "he claims to be" or he "is" etc. ?

What does it say about he Hooded Man?

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

There's also Meera's conversation with Coldhands:

"Meera's gloved hand tightened around the shaft of her frog spear. "Who sent you? Who is this three-eyed crow?" "A friend. Dreamer, wizard, call him what you will. The last greenseer."

I'm not trying to turn this into a Three Eyed Crow discussion forum, but BloodRaven would have all the info he needs to intercept Bran on his way north even if he was not the Three Eyed Crow, and his response to Bran's question if he is, is a little strange.

[Baela Targaryen]

I'm not trying to turn this into a Three Eyed Crow discussion forum, but BloodRaven would have all the info he needs to intercept Bran on his way north even if he was not the Three Eyed Crow, and his response to Bran's question if he is, is a little strange.

I don't consider Bloodraven's response strange at all. You made me regret that I started posting here. *goes back to lurking*