Least likely but most likely canidates for attaining the Iron Throne

[butterbumps!]

Littlefinger is the most misunderstood character of the entire series. Why wouldn't it be his endgame? If he had no aspiration of ruling why was he so adamant in claiming the Vale. Wouldn't he just remain Master of Coin?

The action is building, and Baelish as well as J Lannister have managed to keep relatively out of the main arena, which may pave the way for a late claim to the throne

I agree on LF's being the most misunderstood character, but in the opposite way you mean. The notion of his "rags to riches" is what's sorely misunderstood it seems, as he was actually born a noble, and did not rise to Master of Coin through merit alone. He was actually very privileged, and what he couldn't get through talent or "bluer-blood," he got by sleeping his way towards.

I can't get into this too much right now, but there are a ton of LF threads floating around. In short, LF's endgame is the game itself. He's not trying to become master of the universe in terms of titles. He's trying to become the master of the Universe from behind the scenes and to puppeteer everyone around him in perpetuity. This is what he gets off on, this is what he wants, and if he's king, he can't do that. Higher positions allow him higher stakes to his gambling, but they also include the risk of his being exposed, since these greater positions put him under the radar more, and the nature of his type of game is not conducive to this. Getting the Vale isn't an accomplishment so much as it's moving to "level 3" difficulty, and being the insatiable, gambler pissant he is, it's going to do him in.

[MyLittleDirewolf]

Catelyn was Littlefinger's endgame.

I'm in the Iron Throne Won't Exist camp.

[RoamingRonin]

If the Iron Throne exists by the end of this story (and I don't think it will) then it won't be the same seat of power we've come to know. It appears the Free Folk will soon be the majority in Westoros and they aren't kneelers...

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I'm in the Iron Throne Won't Exist camp.

Indeed, and here's why.

The Iron Throne is the symbol of everything that's pointless, vacuous, destructive, corrupting and distracting. Pretty much the entire underlying point is that people are killing each other and plotting and ruining lives over it, when it doesn't matter, and they're ignoring this actually important threat that's going to sneak through the back door and destroy them, all because they're too petty and stupid playing the "game of thrones."

And people are trying to tell me that after driving that point home, GRRM is going to end this story with someone — anyone — sitting on that thing as if it's a "victory" for them? How can it be a victory when it destroys or wears down pretty much everyone who sits on it?

No. Just, no. You can't take pains to show that the Iron Throne, and who occupies it, is meaningless, only to have it become part of some neat resolution.

[Eelridge]

I agree on LF's being the most misunderstood character, but in the opposite way you mean. The notion of his "rags to riches" is what's sorely misunderstood it seems, as he was actually born a noble, and did not rise to Master of Coin through merit alone. He was actually very privileged, and what he couldn't get through talent or "bluer-blood," he got by sleeping his way towards.

I can't get into this too much right now, but there are a ton of LF threads floating around. In short, LF's endgame is the game itself. He's not trying to become master of the universe in terms of titles. He's trying to become the master of the Universe from behind the scenes and to puppeteer everyone around him in perpetuity. This is what he gets off on, this is what he wants, and if he's king, he can't do that. Higher positions allow him higher stakes to his gambling, but they also include the risk of his being exposed, since these greater positions put him under the radar more, and the nature of his type of game is not conducive to this. Getting the Vale isn't an accomplishment so much as it's moving to "level 3" difficulty, and being the insatiable, gambler pissant he is, it's going to do him in.

Where are you getting this "sleeping his way to the top" notion from. Whores in his brothels don't count.

And yes Littlefinger was an outsider, even if he was barely a noble. He didn't even have a proper sigil until he went out on to his own.

He excelled as Master of Coin, exactly through merit by making shrewd business decisions and never letting emotion dictate his actions. You call him a pupeteer but any good administrator will have complete control of their assets and the direction of their money, to maximise profit. He in fact did more to stabilise Westeros than anyone by keeping the Iron Bank at bay for so many years.

I think Baelish's outcome will surprise many

[Eelridge]

Indeed, and here's why.

The Iron Throne is the symbol of everything that's pointless, vacuous, destructive, corrupting and distracting. Pretty much the entire underlying point is that people are killing each other and plotting and ruining lives over it, when it doesn't matter, and they're ignoring this actually important threat that's going to sneak through the back door and destroy them, all because they're too petty and stupid playing the "game of thrones."

And people are trying to tell me that after driving that point home, GRRM is going to end this story with someone — anyone — sitting on that thing as if it's a "victory" for them? How can it be a victim when it destroys or wears down pretty much everyone who sits on it?

No. Just, no. You can't take pains to show that the Iron Throne, and who occupies it, is meaningless, only to have it become part of some neat resolution.

I agree with your last point being meaningless. That is why I think a lesser character may hold it.

But I do agree with your main philosophy that it won't exist at the end. So how do you see Westeros standing at the end of it all?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Where are you getting this "sleeping his way to the top" notion from.

The app is pretty clear that it was Lysa who persuaded Jon Arryn to give Baelish his appointments and it was because of Lysa that he moved up the ladder. So that's what she means by "sleeping his way to the top." He got where he did because he banged Lysa and got her to become devoted to him and vouch for him to the right people.

I agree with your last point being meaningless. That is why I think a lesser character may hold it.

But I do agree with your main philosophy that it won't exist at the end. So how do you see Westeros standing at the end of it all?

Separate kingdoms. Dorne on its own, the North independent, possibly in a larger federation with the Riverlands, Vale and possibly the Iron Islands. Edric Storm, probably, in the Stormlands. Who knows about the Westerlands and the Reach; can't say I care much, to be honest. :P

[Wanderer]

Indeed, and here's why.

The Iron Throne is the symbol of everything that's pointless, vacuous, destructive, corrupting and distracting. Pretty much the entire underlying point is that people are killing each other and plotting and ruining lives over it, when it doesn't matter, and they're ignoring this actually important threat that's going to sneak through the back door and destroy them, all because they're too petty and stupid playing the "game of thrones."

And people are trying to tell me that after driving that point home, GRRM is going to end this story with someone — anyone — sitting on that thing as if it's a "victory" for them? How can it be a victim when it destroys or wears down pretty much everyone who sits on it?

No. Just, no. You can't take pains to show that the Iron Throne, and who occupies it, is meaningless, only to have it become part of some neat resolution.

Couldn't have put it better. AM, I'm glad your here to write all this awesome stuff. You save me time and embarrassment!

[Eelridge]

The app is pretty clear that it was Lysa who persuaded Jon Arryn to give Baelish his appointments and it was because of Lysa that he moved up the ladder. So that's what she means by "sleeping his way to the top." He got where he did because he banged Lysa and got her to become devoted to him and vouch for him to the right people.

I'd be more inclined to think that the appointments were an afterthought, as Baelish's main reason for bedding Lysa was a personal one. She reminded him of Catelyn, and he possibly used the sex with Lysa to vicariously think he was rogering Catelyn.

If Baelish was incompetent, there is no way Arryn would approve of such a decision, he wasn't overly close to his wife and there probably would have been more suitable candidates had he been looking for someone more "trustworthy" or of the "Arryn-mentality"

[butterbumps!]

Where are you getting this "sleeping his way to the top" notion from. Whores in his brothels don't count.

uh, were you unaware that he slept with Lysa, and that Lysa was in love with him since childhood? That Lysa begged Jon Arryn to appoint LF to his first position as head of customs in the Vale? That after 4 years, Lysa begged Jon once more to promote LF to finances at KL, at which point Lysa and LF continued their sexual liaisons? Lysa is the reason why LF was giving these opportunities in the first place. He advanced from the KL finances to master of coin in his own "right," as he kept bringing in revenue, though through hedge-funding that no one on the council understood, the coffers were actually empty.

And yes Littlefinger was an outsider, even if he was barely a noble. He didn't even have a proper sigil until he went out on to his own.

He did have a proper sigil: the Titan of Braavos. He changed it to a mockingbird, because it is more suited to him. The titan is domineering, strong and visible, but the trickster mockingbird is basically LF's MO.

He excelled as Master of Coin, exactly through merit by making shrewd business decisions and never letting emotion dictate his actions. You call him a pupeteer but any good administrator will have complete control of their assets and the direction of their money, to maximise profit. He in fact did more to stabilise Westeros than anyone by keeping the Iron Bank at bay for so many years.

I think Baelish's outcome will surprise many

Avoiding the IB was likely one of his tactics to increase instability in the realm, knowing that the IB does not let people fuck with it.

LF speculated all that money. It was shadow banking. Yes, once in KL it looked like he could grow money from trees, but in truth, it was just credit.

I'd be more inclined to think that the appointments were an afterthought, as Baelish's main reason for bedding Lysa was a personal one. She reminded him of Catelyn, and he possibly used the sex with Lysa to vicariously think he was rogering Catelyn.

If Baelish was incompetent, there is no way Arryn would approve of such a decision, he wasn't overly close to his wife and there probably would have been more suitable candidates had he been looking for someone more "trustworthy" or of the "Arryn-mentality"

No one is saying that LF is incompetent, but the fact stands that he slept his way to the top. And if you believe what I bolded above, then I say this in the least patronizing way possible, but I think you would benefit from rereading the passages that pertain to this.

[Eelridge]

No one is saying that LF is incompetent, but the fact stands that he slept his way to the top. And if you believe what I bolded above, then I say this in the least patronizing way possible, but I think you would benefit from rereading the passages that pertain to this.

Take from the novel what you will but don't expect others to follow suit.

Your depiction of Baelish is one-dimensional, as this money hungry greedy robot with no emotional backstory. Why would so much time be placed into his character?

I think Martin is more nuanced than this, and Baelish's current actions are the man he has become, and not the man he always was. He loved Catelyn, used Lysa to get to Catelyn both in a proximate sense and to further his career, to prove that he could be a successful husband and provide for her. One of the reasons he betrayed Ned, was most liekly so he could have another crack at Catelyn. Nothing to do with money or power, just passion

The sigil was his father's not his. I think it says more about him as a man by re-creating his own sigil, in the same way Stannis did and putting one's stamp on the situation.

The money was still relatively flowing in and out of Westeros with Baelish in charge, he kept the Bank at bay by most likely honouring payments

[PrinceHenryris]

I generally agree with the "no Iron Throne" camp for the same reasons I believe that the US, Canada, and the EU are all heading down forty miles of bad road. The populations are too divided by geography, ideology and culture for such an empire to endure without an authoritarian threat.

That said, if the "bittersweet" ending does come to pass, I see Dany or Jon sitting the Iron Throne after unprecedented destruction and death.

[butterbumps!]

Take from the novel what you will but don't expect others to follow suit.

There's no indication in the text to suggest that LF enjoyed having relations with Lysa. In fact, the opposite is suggested.

Your depiction of Baelish is one-dimensional, as this money hungry greedy robot with no emotional

Not really. He's just not some poor oppressed commoner who rose to the top in an inspirational story of hard work and virtue. I actually think my reading of it does make him a bit more interesting, because it puts him in a completely different category than every other character including Varys. He's not after money, he's not Gordon Gecko here. He's more like the Joker combined with a gambling problem. And he is smart, only I don't think he's the smartest guy there. The sorts of things he does, and why he does them really point away from the idea that he's a warm ball of goo inside somewhere.

I think Martin is more nuanced than this, and Baelish's current actions are the man he has become, and not the man he always was. He loved Catelyn, used Lysa to get to Catelyn both in a proximate sense and to further his career, to prove that he could be a successful husband and provide for her. One of the reasons he betrayed Ned, was most liekly so he could have another crack at Catelyn. Nothing to do with money or power, just passion

I think this is extremely wrong as per the way the text portrays their interactions, as well as the fact that he flaunted taking Cat's virginity all over the court (he didn't, just to be clear, as he lies).

The sigil was his father's not his. I think it says more about him as a man by re-creating his own sigil, in the same way Stannis did and putting one's stamp on the situation.

The money was still relatively flowing in and out of Westeros with Baelish in charge, he kept the Bank at bay by most likely honouring payments

That's kind of how sigils work. They aren't exactly 30 pieces of flair from Chotskies, ffs.

And btw, no, LF did not honor IB payments, hence why the banker kept petitioning in court, and finally why a different banker- Tycho--showed up at the Wall to get the Lannisters out and put Stannis in charge. Undermining the Lannisters is exactly what LF wanted to accomplish.

[Dr. Pepper]

Mmm, tasty popcorn. I just love these types of shows. They have a good-tingly feel about them, like crap hollywood hero movies where we know exactly who will end up victorious.

[WenchofTarth]

As long as lots more Freys die I don't care who sits the Throne. As long as its somebody, none of this fracturing business.

[rivergirl]

I want Gendry to attain it, melt it down and make something more useful with it. As for who actually sits on the scab-causing child-killing ego-inflating chair of doom before they give it to a blacksmith... I'd go for The Mannis.

[Bayard]

So the king at the end: Jaime Targaryen and his queen/sister Daenerys Targaryen :)). You wanted crackpot :), now if only he managed to kill that zombie :)

[RedBean]

I'd go with Aegon here. Yes, he is a Blackfyre probably, but no one needs to know that right? ;) And then we can possibly have Sansa as Queen! (Yes, this is my real reason for wanting Aegon as King :dunno: )

[The Meeraculous Third Reed]

Aegon will sit the throne mafia-style (aka under the Sea) after Euron shows his "piety" to the Drowned God.

[AdrianAegon]

I'd go with Aegon here. Yes, he is a Blackfyre probably, but no one needs to know that right? ;) And then we can possibly have Sansa as Queen! (Yes, this is my real reason for wanting Aegon as King :dunno: )

Yes, Aegon as King and Sansa as Queen! Tyrion the Hand, Daenerys kaleese in the Dothraki Sea on the back of Drogon, and Jon Stark\Targaryen King in the North, with Val as his Queen