The Flowering of Arya - Impact on Her character development

[Florina Laufeyson]

Well, this isn't creepy at all.

It really isnt.

GRRM said it so well when he said I can write about horrible violence in all its intricacies, but write one scene about sex, a completely natural thing, and a firestorm arises. LOL. But seriously, I think it may play in to her maturing and character development. we'll see.

Hahah i know right? And i do agree that Arya flowering so to speak, will have some sort of impact on her.

I guess they just thought you were some creepy guy, because let's be honest: a guy starting a thread like this could be disturbing. xD

Double standards are just buckets of fun, arent they? :B

I got the sense the the life of a Braavosi courtesan is 60% intrigue, 39% awesome, 1% turning tricks. That's to say, I think it's an interesting twist because there's so much about being a courtesan that I think doesn't pertain to sex directly, but still uses femininity for power. Plus, the KM did say that she'd need a pretty face for her next task...a pretty face just like hers.

Yeah. The courtesans seem to hold a lot more power than one would expect. Plus it would seem that many a politician frequent the courtesans, and they would know a great deal, if not everything, thats going on in the city. And maybe even beyond. Rich merchants from abroad coming to the manses of courtesans, and divulging information about beyond the Narrow Sea (in their cups) is probably commonplace. (not to mention the wealth they aquire from "tributes" lol)

As for Arya flowering, for some girls, shit does change when that takes place. Hormones get all runnin' and certain perspectives can change. I certainly had the same amount of interest in dudes as Arya does when i was her age. After i started my period for the first time, those sorts of thoughts shifted a bit. Looking at boys a little differently. Its possible that Arya would end up doing the same. I think the Kindly Man intends for Arya to enter the tutelage of a courtesan. He even says something like "Men will begger themselves for your maidenhead." Arya doesnt even have much of a reaction to that, whereas, if that was said to her in AGoT, she would be all "wtf..no!" I believe her flowering will lead to a bit more of an understanding of the female ways and will start her on a path of maturing as a woman.

[Nausicaä]

What is gross in His Dark Materials? I never thought there was anything.

It's not that there's something gross in HDM. The poster is saying that people who complain about this topic and find it gross shouldn't read HDM because the book deals with a teenage protagonist going through puberty and starting to feel sexual attraction and that may scandalize them, despite that Pullman wrote it to show that human sexuality is something natural and worthy of celebration (that particular scene in the Amber Spyglass is meant to parallel the fall of man and show (in Pullman's own words) that the "so-called original sin is anything but"). I think it's a valid comparison, because some people did find that part of the novels uncomfortable and the book was censored in North American editions.

i don't rember a lot of discussion about puberty in his dark materials. but it has been a while since i read it. am i forgetting something about lyra?

Lyra, as the second Eve, has to "fall" to stop the Dust from leaking from the world. The flow of Dust normalizes as she and Will fall in love and go though sexual awakening and start to truly know/understand themselves. It's kind of hard to miss, but the changes that Lyra experiences may be less obvious if you read a censored edition of the book, because they cut out the detailed description of her feelings when Mary (the serpent) tells her about her own sexual awakening (you can read about the differences between the editions on the Wiki page). I think I have read that some stuff from the actual scene with Lyra and Will was censored too, but I can't find the quotes right now.

[Alia of the knife]

It always wonders me how people find creepy talk about sex topics and have no problem with violence like people getting part of their bodies cut. Puberty is natural part of life as well as menarche to half the world population. Though I would change the name of topic to how body development would affect Arya...

In my opinion the flowerig itself will not have grand impact, probably is something she will be expecting to happen; but being perceived as a woman by those around her would definectly impact in her character. Now some would say that she can disguise herself, but that is true just to some extent, it's no the same a child's body than a adult's body; she can change her face and dissemble her body but at the end pretend being a boy always entails the same dangerous possibility: just like Gendry asked her to show her penis others could ask the same and she has none to show.

Faceless Men appears to be the kind of organization that encourages its disciples to use all the weapons at their disposal... accordingly, Arya could drink some potion that stops her growing like the waif girl or she could use the fact of being a woman as an advantage. In westerosi culture men usually treat women as harmless beings, this is a huge benefit: serving girls are treated like air and men are totally unprotected when dealing with prostitutes; she doesn't need do the job she just has to play the part. Plus as a woman Arya will have access to several places where most men cannot enter.

I have the feeling that courtesan or mummer training are the next for Arya, the pretty face comment tip the scales to the courtensan side and I believe that Arya will love it, being a courtesan in Braavos seems really exciting. Yes, she said she doesn't want to be a Lady, she didn't say she doesn't want to be a woman; what she rejects are the social restrictions most westerosian ladies have (She would be BFF with Lady Mormont, the sand snakes and wildling women).

The Braavosi courtesan culture seems similar to Venice in the sixteenth-century. Venice was a city that was flourishing both economically and culturally. With the influx from the trade routes, it was necessary for Venice to sustain the tourists and merchants that came and went from the city to amuse male travelers in Venice, the predominant entertainment of the city resides in the use of courtesans. From The World of Venice...

The role of women in the sixteenth-century was limited, and it was with their skills and knowledge that courtesans of Venice became powerful and influential. Braavosi famous courtesans are powerful and wealthy, they needed intelligence and knowledge to reach their positions; a girl like Arya (who knows to read, is learning several languages and is good dealing with people) has no better place to hone and increase her set of talents and abilities.

I would also add to that the tradtion of the Geisha, which included high Art and entertainment, hostessing duties as much as companionship or sexual favors.

http://www.deviantar...aminary_san.jpg

[Buckwheat]

It's not that there's something gross in HDM. The poster is saying that people who complain about this topic and find it gross shouldn't read HDM because the book deals with a teenage protagonist going through puberty and starting to feel sexual attraction and that may scandalize them, despite that Pullman wrote it to show that human sexuality is something natural and worthy of celebration (that particular scene in the Amber Spyglass is meant to parallel the fall of man and show (in Pullman's own words) that the "so-called original sin is anything but"). I think it's a valid comparison, because some people did find that part of the novels uncomfortable and the book was censored in North American editions.

Lyra, as the second Eve, has to "fall" to stop the Dust from leaking from the world. The flow of Dust normalizes as she and Will fall in love and go though sexual awakening and start to truly know/understand themselves. It's kind of hard to miss, but the changes that Lyra experiences may be less obvious if you read a censored edition of the book, because they cut out the detailed description of her feelings when Mary (the serpent) tells her about her own sexual awakening (you can read about the differences between the editions on the Wiki page). I think I have read that some stuff from the actual scene with Lyra and Will was censored too, but I can't find the quotes right now.

Yes, I remember a discussion in the book forums about this now. I never understood what is there that can scandalise anybody, especially a reader of ASOIAF. :dunno: Also I thought that the changes in the American editions were nonsensical.

[Éadaoin]

Some insightful posts in this thread. I think something that is interesting is that while some readers label Arya as essentially a boy, she herself objects to being considered one. It has always been my impression that she fights against gender roles, not her gender itself. While she does not like the constraints placed upon women in her world, she doesn't seem to want to be a man in the same explicit way that say, Cersei does (which Cersei retains in adulthood.)

That being said, I can see her "flowering" having some effect on her. I am interested to see how her character will develop.

[Alia of the knife]

Some insightful posts in this thread. I think something that is interesting is that while some readers label Arya as essentially a boy, she herself objects to being considered one. It has always been my impression that she fights against gender roles, not her gender itself. While she does not like the constraints placed upon women in her world, she doesn't seem to want to be a man in the same explicit way that say, Cersei does (which Cersei retains in adulthood.)

That being said, I can see her "flowering" having some effect on her. I am interested to see how her character will develop.

Well said, and I would just add that perhaps that the big changes she will have to deal with is how she is perceived.

Shes already had someone want to kiss her, but if she flowers the way Kevan said Cersei flowered, then it may take serious adjustment because all of her life she's been given a specific message, though the flip side of those unfortunate messages is it will keep her from becoming vain.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

There is nothing creepy about menstruation, it's perfectly natural.

But I do not like it when female characters are reduced so very much to her body functions, her looks or her "blooming" sexuality.

Arya has been confronted with sexual harassment, she has learned to defend herself against it with knife or wits. She for sure has seen or heard sex, has traveled with men, has known prostitutes, has talked to them so probably male and female bodies are no big secret to her, she will have a pretty accurate idea what part fits where. So she might be rather matter of fact when she has her menarche, perhaps be aware that rape would be even more dangerous now.

I do not see her as person who will be a victim of hormonal rollercoaster rides. I think she has other problems and wishes. She needs not define herself by that alleged threshold to womanhood

Thank you.

I don't find menarche creepy per se, but I do wonder about all the attention paid to the sexual development of barely pubescent fictional characters and their romantic futures – how much time is supposed to pass in those two books to come, anyway?

I don't expect Arya's first visit from Aunt Flo to be discussed at length, or at all, because (1) the progress of her story doesn't revolve around or depend on marriage, and (2) there's an awful lot of other, more important, stuff that has to be resolved if this series is going to be finished in two books. I certainly wouldn't be happy if GRRM gave us a chapter on Arya's tender blooming into womanhood before he's told us who Jon's frickin' parents are or gotten the damn Others beyond the damn Wall. It's also possible for GRRM to describe Arya's attractions to boys and men, and theirs to her, without him describing her interaction with sanitary products.

Oh, for heaven's sake! That's ridiculous.

Are you saying that PMS and PMDD are myths? "Irritability" is listed as a symptom of both. Now, I'm not entirely certain that an irritable assassin is a better one, although the gods help (or not) a Frey who encounters a bloated, irritable, headachy Arya.

I don't know how much Arya knows about a woman's ...cycle. It is possible she is completely ignorant of the physical manifestation. This could prove very frightening to a girl that has lost her mother, her older sister, her septa - basically all the people she may have turned to in that situation. Maybe these feelings will make her yearn for home. I suppose someone at the FM could advise her... they may even have a potion to cease the process.

Arya is the girl who tried to eat a grave worm crawling out of the Kindly Man's eye socket and who rather casually slit a person's throat. I don't think she'll be too grossed out about a little blood considering all she's seen.

[The Night's Prince]

People take things way too seriously on this forum. It's an interesting and valid topic and shouldn't have to be justified by the thread creator. It's actually quite rude. More of a seductress eh? I believe maybe her faces will be more eye appealing than the old hag she was for her first transformation. She'll probably dress more liberally but I don't think she'll participate in any kind of risque actions to get the kill. Most likely just flirting and well known mannerisms of seduction.

[Kittykatknits]

Thank you.

I don't find menarche creepy per se, but I do wonder about all the attention paid to the sexual development of barely pubescent fictional characters and their romantic futures – how much time is supposed to pass in those two books to come, anyway?

I don't expect Arya's first visit from Aunt Flo to be discussed at length, or at all, because (1) the progress of her story doesn't revolve around or depend on marriage, and (2) there's an awful lot of other, more important, stuff that has to be resolved if this series is going to be finished in two books. I certainly wouldn't be happy if GRRM gave us a chapter on Arya's tender blooming into womanhood before he's told us who Jon's frickin' parents are or gotten the damn Others beyond the damn Wall. It's also possible for GRRM to describe Arya's attractions to boys and men, and theirs to her, without him describing her interaction with sanitary products.

I don't have a problem with menarche at all, I wish there was less taboo on the topic actually.

However, I am struggling with the relevance of Arya's flowering on her storyline. You pretty much described where my confusion is. There is lots of story and plot points to resolve and sex/marriage/romance doesn't seem relevant to her storyline. I also don't buy the idea of her having a huge crush on Gendry and that being proof of a future relationship between them either. Personally, I'm OK with this, I don't need these elements to be a part of a female character's storyline, regardless of her age.

The above elements are part of Sansa's but her moon blood had a reason with in the story, she's been forcible married, kissed, tossed between engagements, multiple crushes, and talks on the marriage bed. But, what happens in one storyline doesn't need to happen in the other.

And I kinda like that. So, I think it would be disappointing to have an entire chapter dealing with Arya's shock over her period and then spending the rest of the chapter tracking down some cloths to take care of it. Blah.

[Florina Laufeyson]

Personally, i dont think a chapter would be dedicated to that. I'd imagine it being more like "Arya went to make her water and noticed the blood." And she would be like "Well, damn." I think it might be a plot point because it may have a factor in what direction she may take with the Faceless Men and where she goes next. Be it with courtesans or another training option.

Crackpot time: But perhaps it may have something to do with her connection with Nymeria too. They call it "moon's blood" in this story and wolves are highly associated with the moon. Maybe something relevant could take place due to that? (Not to mention that her dreams with Nymeria are referred to as The Night Wolf.) Sansa has yet to warg, so we arent certain what connections, if any, are associated with a flowering and warging with wolves.

[Ludd]

A bit of research on the War of Roses made me read the history of Margaret of Scotland (a Lancaster descendent of the legitimized Beaufort bastards -John of Gaunt married the mother after having four children with her).

Anyway the girl at age 11 marries Louis the dauphin of France who was 13 and behaved exactly like Joffrey did. She is is treated like a "Doll" and marriage consummation is postponed, presumably because she has not "flowered" . She apparently had a terror of having children with the much loathed Louis. She loved poetry and her bio sounds JUST like Sansa's.

[Ludd]

Arya called her wolf Nymeria, so I expect her story line to follow this line. She will return to Westeros with a host and marry - probably the King or Prince of Dorne

[Quiet Isle]

A bit of research on the War of Roses made me read the history of Margaret of Scotland (a Lancaster descendent of the legitimized Beaufort bastards -John of Gaunt married the mother after having four children with her).

Anyway the girl at age 11 marries Louis the dauphin of France who was 13 and behaved exactly like Joffrey did. She is is treated like a "Doll" and marriage consummation is postponed, presumably because she has not "flowered" . She apparently had a terror of having children with the much loathed Louis. She loved poetry and her bio sounds JUST like Sansa's.

Ya know what? GRRM references the WAR OF THE ROSES a lot. ty for this.

and thanks for the posters to understand why i posited this question. I'm 55 years old, have had three children, now grown, and i don't find anything about our womanhood. offensive. the first few comments made me start to think i'd done something wrong here - and then I realized, i bet they're younger (no offense). advancing to womanhood is quite natural, but can be different-scary, and whoever posted the quote above about I'd imagine it being more like "Arya went to make her water and noticed the blood." And she would be like "Well, damn." i kind of think that's the way it will go down with her. like "ONE MORE THING." but having said all of the above, i do think it will make a difference. and all the foreshadowing of Sam as a maester leads me to believe he will be involved with a "bloody bed". I LOVE how this series investigates every possible human event and emotion. So thanks folks for understanding where I was going. Arya - I love ya. I want to see you envelop all you have learned, family, history, womanhood. you go girl. we're pulling for you.

[Alia of the knife]

Ya know what? GRRM references the WAR OF THE ROSES a lot. ty for this.

and thanks for the posters to understand why i posited this question. I'm 55 years old, have had three children, now grown, and i don't find anything about our womanhood. offensive. the first few comments made me start to think i'd done something wrong here - and then I realized, i bet they're younger (no offense). advancing to womanhood is quite natural, but can be different-scary, and whoever posted the quote above about I'd imagine it being more like "Arya went to make her water and noticed the blood." And she would be like "Well, damn." i kind of think that's the way it will go down with her. like "ONE MORE THING." but having said all of the above, i do think it will make a difference. and all the foreshadowing of Sam as a maester leads me to believe he will be involved with a "bloody bed". I LOVE how this series investigates every possible human event and emotion. So thanks folks for understanding where I was going. Arya - I love ya. I want to see you envelop all you have learned, family, history, womanhood. you go girl. we're pulling for you.

Totally agree on your analysis.

Also pinpointing what Florina Stark said, the "flowering" is not the point, it's how she transitions it.

I don't see her losing her mind over it, but planning on how to deal with it. I do however see her being irritated at the "distraction" of it all, and the fuss over something she'll probably view as secondary to everything else.

Martin also deals with the theme of "irony" and the fact that she may be beautiful as seems to be foreshadowed, (because I don't think it's an accident that Martin compares her not only in spirit, but in looks to Lyanna), and how she also deals with something she probably didn't expect to become.

For example, my mother had a figure women would pay for, but she hated it because it took a physical toll on her with regards to being a nurse, an already strenuous profession unless the implants women buy are less heavy than the real things.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

I definitely see a major jump in hormones. And agree with everything you've said above. But it also leads me to believe that she may become more of a seductress in her FM activities.

I don't see that at all. Either you are a tomboy or you aren't. Look at Brienne. Also, I sincerely doubt that books will go on that far.

[Quiet Isle]

Totally agree on your analysis.

Also pinpointing what Florina Stark said, the "flowering" is not the point, it's how she transitions it.

I don't see her losing her mind over it, but planning on how to deal with it. I do however see her being irritated at the "distraction" of it all, and the fuss over something she'll probably view as secondary to everything else.

Martin also deals with the theme of "irony" and the fact that she may be beautiful as seems to be foreshadowed, (because I don't think it's an accident that Martin compares her not only in spirit, but in looks to Lyanna), and how she also deals with something she probably didn't expect to become.

For example, my mother had a figure women would pay for, but she hated it because it took a physical toll on her with regards to being a nurse, an already strenuous profession unless the implants women buy are less heavy than the real things.

That last sentence made me Lol, since i'm well endowed and have been since 16.

transitioning arya. yes, i think you and Florina are right. It's how you deal with it. and IRONY. i think it will be quite ironic when she becomes a beauty. and how she will transition that factor into her life. I've known beauties who were complete assholes. because of their beauty. i've known plain women who were beautiful because they knew what their lives were about and brought great beauty through their kindness and loving actions to others. i think both sansa and arya are heading that way. beauty is only skin deep. i think they will both be lovely. but internally, well, that's what counts. look to the Hound. god bless him.

[Dolorous Nedd]

I definitely see a major jump in hormones. And agree with everything you've said above. But it also leads me to believe that she may become more of a seductress in her FM activities.

I will heartbroken if Arya takes that route. I think there is still hope for her to end up on a better path.

[Quiet Isle]

I will heartbroken if Arya takes that route. I think there is still hope for her to end up on a better path.

I really don't think that's the way it will go. but she is going to embrace womanhead, say ok, on to other things, and will have to also reconcile her beauty with continuing to be a warrior and enlightened woman.

[Quiet Isle]

I don't see that at all. Either you are a tomboy or you aren't. Look at Brienne. Also, I sincerely doubt that books will go on that far.

absolutely don't agree with that. i've known athletic warrior women who could be quite lovely and soft in another setting. and i also think you're going to see Brienne in that setting at some point. arya too.

[Florina Laufeyson]

Totally agree on your analysis.

Also pinpointing what Florina Stark said, the "flowering" is not the point, it's how she transitions it.

I don't see her losing her mind over it, but planning on how to deal with it. I do however see her being irritated at the "distraction" of it all, and the fuss over something she'll probably view as secondary to everything else.

Martin also deals with the theme of "irony" and the fact that she may be beautiful as seems to be foreshadowed, (because I don't think it's an accident that Martin compares her not only in spirit, but in looks to Lyanna), and how she also deals with something she probably didn't expect to become.

For example, my mother had a figure women would pay for, but she hated it because it took a physical toll on her with regards to being a nurse, an already strenuous profession unless the implants women buy are less heavy than the real things.

:agree: For Sansa, the flowering was physical and coupled with a fear that she now must wed Joff and bear his children. For Arya, i believe it will be more about transition. I dont feel emphasis will be placed so much on the actual flowering as much as Arya's transition from little girl to young woman. It will be about her throught processes, her "change". She wont stop being Arya as we know her, i think she will grow from it, however.

Either you are a tomboy or you aren't.

:bs: Speaking as your resident "tomboy", i find this to be rather ludicrous. "Tomboyish" women can also be rather feminine when they want to be. Like RAGNAROK said, in different settings, "tomboys" can be rather feminine in their own way.