Has Theon deserved all that happened to him for betraying Winterfell?

[Stark Outlook]

Theon responsible for the Red Wedding? How? Just curious.

to add a bit more to whats already been said...

if theon hadn't taken winterfell then robb and his army would never of had to go north again through the twins to try and make it to white harbor.. also i remember roose bolton saying that the starks where finished as soon as they lost winterfell which made him switch sides sooner...

don't get me wrong i'm not saying its all his fault or anything i just put him, freys, and boltons in the same bracket as they all played a part in it directly or otherwise

[DasKapital]

Theon's fate: kill Ramsey and then die, thus avenging suffering and escaping it, albeit tragically.

I can't see him ever having a position of power amongst the ironborn; there are exactly 0 things in the ironborn mentality that would encourage them to follow someone like him. And he isn't really relevant to any other subplots, apart from Ramsey.

Edit: that was not relevant to this topic.

With regard to whether he deserved his suffering, in my books you deserve to get what you give out. He deserves to die, but the only person who deserves to be Ramsey-tortured is Ramsey.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

I'm not excusing the crimes that Theon did, I just think we should acknowledge the not-so-small part Ramsay played in them. And I don't think it was treason for Theon to follow his family as opposed to the people who held him hostage half his life, no matter how well he was treated or how good Ned's reasons were. And is it really better to rape and murder innocent people instead of taking a castle? I don't think so. Theon has paid for his mistakes IMO, though I understand why some poeple would think otherwise.

You are of course entitled to your opinion, I'm not saying otherwise. IMO Theon has suffered rightly and has more work to do before he dies. Had Theon not actually fought for the Starks in the war or knelt before Robb and swore him his sword, I would agree no treason occurred. But he gained the trust of Robb and then stabbed him in the back.

[direwolf_of_white_fangs]

to add a bit more to whats already been said...

if theon hadn't taken winterfell then robb and his army would never of had to go north again through the twins to try and make it to white harbor.. also i remember roose bolton saying that the starks where finished as soon as they lost winterfell which made him switch sides sooner...

don't get me wrong i'm not saying its all his fault or anything i just put him, freys, and boltons in the same bracket as they all played a part in it directly or otherwise

It agree. Robb only died at the bloody Frey castle because he needed the Freys and to cross the Twins again to rescue Winterfell.

Therefore if Winterfell hadn't be taken by Theon and word of death of the two Stark chrildren wouldn't have reached Robb he would have kept fighting in the riverlands or even kept moving south - to KL or Lannisport, he wouldn't need to turn back north.

So yeah, Theon's conquest of Winterfell was the event that kickstarted it all and culminated on the Red wedding.

[Ser Sasqualito]

Twyin could have suffered a little more.

I think Theon probably had it the worse. That's why I advocate for his death. Let's not let him suffer anything more.

When you think about it a little; it sucks to be Davos, but not near as bad as Theon by end of DwD.

Anybody who had it as worse as Theon would be the people that get sent to Qyburn.

Would have definitely liked to see Joff suffering more. The death was good, but nowhere near fitting for the humiliation and cruelty he showed others.

Theon/Reek has begun to earn a clean death as far as I have read, but IMO he is a traitor and deserves to die a traitors death. His treatment at the hands of Bolton is what comes from thinking only of yourself and your glory. The Starks we more of a family to him then the Greyjoys, and his own mother seems to be the only one who even cared that he was alive or dead.

In the end, I would say that he has earned what happened, due to the fact that his betrayal was only to further his own ends, and not for the good of anyone, even his own house. My .02

[The Red Hand]

You are of course entitled to your opinion, I'm not saying otherwise. IMO Theon has suffered rightly and has more work to do before he dies. Had Theon not actually fought for the Starks in the war or knelt before Robb and swore him his sword, I would agree no treason occurred. But he gained the trust of Robb and then stabbed him in the back.

Theon never actually swore Robb his sword, that was just one more creative liberty taken on the show. To the best of my knowledge Theon never sowre an oath to house Stark, and he was still technically a hostage when he fought for them. Still, like I said, dick move in taking Winterfell.

[The Red Hand]

It agree. Robb only died at the bloody Frey castle because he needed the Freys and to cross the Twins again to rescue Winterfell.

Therefore if Winterfell hadn't be taken by Theon and word of death of the two Stark chrildren wouldn't have reached Robb he would have kept fighting in the riverlands or even kept moving south - to KL or Lannisport, he wouldn't need to turn back north.

So yeah, Theon's conquest of Winterfell was the event that kickstarted it all and culminated on the Red wedding.

Theon played a part in Robb's fall, but so did Robb and Cat. I lay the Red Wedding on the two men directly responsible for it, Roose Bolton and Walder Frey. They chose to betray and murder Robb in a humongous breach of guest right, laying the blame on anyone but them is silly IMO. And, even if Theon hadn't taken WF can we be sure that Robb wouldn't march north? His homeland was still under attack by the IB.

[direwolf_of_white_fangs]

I lay the Red Wedding on the two men directly responsible on it, Roose Bolton and Walder Frey. They chose to betray and murder Robb in a humongous breach of guest right, laying the blame on anyone but them is silly IMO. And, even if Theon hadn't taken WF can we be sure that Robb wouldn't march north? His homeland was still under attack by the IB.

Theon did not know his actions would lead to the red wedding although the fact he took winterfell lead down that road. But Roose, Walder Frey and Tywin lannister planned the red wedding and executed it.

So yeah, They are the ones to blame. Two are still alive and will be likely targets for the stark forces in the next 2 books.

[Stark Outlook]

Theon played a part in Robb's fall, but so did Robb and Cat. I lay the Red Wedding on the two men directly responsible for it, Roose Bolton and Walder Frey. They chose to betray and murder Robb in a humongous breach of guest right, laying the blame on anyone but them is silly IMO. And, even if Theon hadn't taken WF can we be sure that Robb wouldn't march north? His homeland was still under attack by the IB.

of course the freys, tywin and roose are responsible for the red wedding and only death by the hands of northmen would be a worthy kind of vengance but as i said before theon had a small part in the events leading up to it so i grouped him in the same bracket for a while.. mostly because he was close and a brother like figure to robb so i judged his betrayal to be more severe

i doubt he would of marched north, the only reason he did was because he tough a king that cant secure his own castle is no king.. roderik cassel still had a small force that could of dealt with the IB and would the boltons of betrayed him so soon or at all without the loss of winterfell? its possible but i think not.

[Masha]

Doubtful. Jon does not seem to be in a mood for needless killing.

Much like Arya and Sansa, they have the full potential to become BFF now.

After end of ADWD I sincerely doubt that Jon's experience would leave him as gentle and warm as he was before. I think he will be as cold, calculating and as ruthless as Stannis and even more so . He will do what needs to be done and if that includes killing Theon, the traitor he will do so without second thought.

[LuisDantas]

Who knows. Personally, I would rather see him die outright.

[Genevaman]

I don't think anyone deserved what Theon has been put through, no matter how cruel or treacherous. Heck, I wouldn't even put Joffrey or Gregor to that fate and they hardly even count as human to me.

Theon was in a die-if-you-do, die-if-you-don't scenario with the War of the Five Kings. If he had betrayed his family he would have be labeled a turncoat, a coward and, potentially, a kinslayer by his own family and people. Siding with them against Rob didn't change much but at least it meant he didn't have to burn his roots.

Theon was not an evil character. He was incredibly misguided, but not evil. There are characters that have done far worse, and enjoyed it, that have met with little consequences for it. If Theon needs to be punished for his crimes let him face that punishment as those he committed them against would have meted them out. I could never see Rob approving of his fate despite his betrayal.

[ladyofslytherin]

The argument could be made that Theon killing (or announcing that he had killed,) Bran and Rickon led to the RW because it was Cat and Robb's grief at this supposed event which led them to release Jaime and sleep with Jeyne respectively.

I would agree with this assessment. If Theon hadn't "killed" Bran & Rickon, Robb might not have been so easily tempted into Jeyne Westerling's bed and the Red Wedding might not have happened. But Robb could still have resisted temptation, or could have found another solution to preserving Jeyne's honor besides marrying her himself. And also, Robb sent Theon there to begin with, knowing that Balon Greyjoy had little and less reason to feel any loyalty to the Starks or be amenable to terms. Even with Theon's assurances that he could convince his father to agree, Robb should've taken that into account.

[ladyofslytherin]

AFAIC, Theon has paid for his crimes tenfold, but I also believe that redemption from those crimes is impossible.

I agree with what someone else said here, when they made the case that Theon's betrayal of Robb wasn't his decision to side with his own family over staying true to the Starks. Theon had long imagined that honor and glory among the landed nobility of Westeros was going to equal the same among the Iron Islanders; and what evidence did he have that would have told him otherwise? He was a child when he was taken as hostage to live at Winterfell, and was his father's third son besides. I have no doubt that Balon paid much attention to him as a child, focusing on the other two brothers who were old enough to fight and reave and do all the things that Ironborn apparently love to do. When Theon came home to nothing but contempt and ridicule from those he'd long imagined being received by with praise and honor and flattery, it was a serious blow to his ego.

So to make his father happy, he turned his cloak. Contemptible by Westerosi standards, but not criminal in this case, I think. His father, doing what made sense militarily when dealing with an unproven commander, insulted his pride further by giving him an unimportant mission. And Theon's dismay and anger at his sister being given what Theon believed were the commands and esteem he was due is largely rooted, I fear, in the sexism that pervades Westerosi society. So when he believed he had a chance to show her up, he seized it.

That's where the true betrayal lies, IMHO: not in turning his cloak to try to make his father happy, since he could easily have turned it right back and gone back to Robb when his father seemed to spurn him so contemptuously, but in attacking Winterfell, Robb's home and ancestral seat, and threatening Robb's younger brothers. He was getting back at the Starks, whom he had decided to blame for his family treating him the way they did, and showing up his sister with her 30 ships and her crews' loyalty, all in one swoop. He wasn't thinking strategically at that point. All he cared about was getting someone to take him seriously enough to treat him like he felt he should be treated.

And then the whole mess with the miller's wife and sons. I partially blame Ramsey for that, since he was whispering in Theon's ear at that point, but Theon murdered innocent people to keep from being laughed at. He executed smallfolk at Winterfell, people he'd known over half his life, because they treated him like an invader instead of just accepting him as liege lord. He wanted everyone to treat him like a little prince and to stroke his vanity, and when he didn't get it, he lashed out with increasingly despicable and disasterous results.

Death is too clean, perhaps, to be truly meet for the deaths Theon dealt to people who did nothing to deserve them. But the torture he suffered at Ramsey's hands is so far beyond the price that anyone should pay that I don't believe it was karmically balanced. If anything, I'd like to see Theon put a few arrows into Roose & Ramsey before he loses his head, but I don't think a full redemption arc is possible or appropriate.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

That's where the true betrayal lies, IMHO: not in turning his cloak to try to make his father happy, since he could easily have turned it right back and gone back to Robb when his father seemed to spurn him so contemptuously, but in attacking Winterfell, Robb's home and ancestral seat, and threatening Robb's younger brothers.

And then the whole mess with the miller's wife and sons. I partially blame Ramsey for that, since he was whispering in Theon's ear at that point, but Theon murdered innocent people to keep from being laughed at. He executed smallfolk at Winterfell, people he'd known over half his life, because they treated him like an invader instead of just accepting him as liege lord. He wanted everyone to treat him like a little prince and to stroke his vanity, and when he didn't get it, he lashed out with increasingly despicable and disasterous results.

Death is too clean, perhaps, to be truly meet for the deaths Theon dealt to people who did nothing to deserve them. But the torture he suffered at Ramsey's hands is so far beyond the price that anyone should pay that I don't believe it was karmically balanced. If anything, I'd like to see Theon put a few arrows into Roose & Ramsey before he loses his head, but I don't think a full redemption arc is possible or appropriate.

The taking of Winterfell is what I have pointed to as well. He could have shown some loyalty to both families by following orders and reaving the coast. But he exercised free will and allowed his ego to take control.

The Miller's boys, the execution of Winterfell servants, the rape of serving girl he'd known all of his life (willingness to give her to Ramsay) and the RW are all unforgivable crimes.

He has paid at hands of Ramsay from a cruel, ironic standpoint. But the law still demands his life, either by execution or the Wall.

[Ladylance]

I actually think Theon was put in a bit of an impossible possition by Robb, in that Robb didn't think about what would happen if Balon turned his offer down. Having said that, he could have just taken up a minor role in the Iron Islands' attack on the North, he didn't have to go and sack Winterfell. He certainly didn't have to kill the miller's children. I can understand his motivation at a lot of points in the story, and he is very torn between his two families. He lived with his own family until the age of 10, and the Starks for his teenage years. He was friends with Robb, but his mother at least seemed to love him. I think it's incredably difficult for him. That said, he loses a lot of sympathy for killing two random children for the sake of convenience (I know he was desperate, but I don't think it's an excuse).

I think if he hadn't killed the miller's children, he wouldn't even deserve a punishment as such. His taking of Winterfell was relatively bloodless, compared to say, what was happening in the Riverlands, or what we later see his uncles doing in Highgarden. For killing the miller's children, he probably deserved to be beheaded (or possibly to take the Black- can you take the Black if you've comitted murder?).

I don't think what he did deserves being tortured. I don't think torture is ever really justified and certainly not as a punishment.

[wolfmaid7]

Betraying Robb; seeking a little love from daddy or getting a little respect from the iron born, all of that to me could be viewed through different opinions. I'm sorry the moment you killed two children,two children i say and their mom you deserve to go through seven hells.I put Jaime pushing Bran out the window,and the Hound halving the butcher's boy beneath that.I'm sorry nothing Theon does can ever erase that if he can give that family back their lives maybe then,but until may the Weirwoods rape him and may the crows peck out his eyes.

[Ser Mag the Mighty]

Theon needs to take the black and rest.

[Viserys_The Transformed]

It is not about deserving. Not everyone gets good or bad in a balance.

Theon is a case of man locked into chain of events from which he cannot escape, and has to go through the ordeal.

[zelatorn]

i think he deserved part of it. he wasnt a smuggler like davos, so i'd say that maybe some public humilation, some torture and then finally death by beheading would have been just and mercifull. that is the point of justice. you make someone pay, but stay merciful. an eye for an eye isnt the point of justice.

the only people i thin deserve ramsey's treatment are ramsey, roose, cercei, joffrey, about every frey and gregor. possibly some figures like varys and littlefinger, but we dont really know what they are up to still.

if you stick to the question, no, he didnt deserve it for taking winterfell. he deseverd to take either the black or a blade tot the neck for that. for murdering the miller's boys and all, he deserved some more. but theon is by FAR not the most evil person out there but was about the worst treated. his actions are somewhat justifyable, which isnt ofc. a pardon but his history combined with ramseys corruption later on really tips the scale into me pitying him rather than getting his fair share of suffering. unlike cercei, who is on a shared number one position for most despised character, together with old walder frey and gregor in hot pursuit at numebr two.