Heresy 32

[addicted to snow]

Does anyone here think that Jon will eventually start collecting 'skins', not unlike Varymir Six-Skins. I think he will except that many/most of Jon's skins will be human... Hodor will probably be his first. I don't know what will transpire @ the wall while Jon is kicking-it beyond the wall, but he will eventually turn south. He might find is original body in an ice-cell, free for the taking. It will more than likely be in state like Khal Drogo's body was before Dany smothered it... I think Jon will be able to fight through the skins of multiple bodies simultaneously...

[armidil0]

Does anyone here think that Jon will eventually start collecting 'skins', not unlike Varymir Six-Skins. I think he will except that many/most of Jon's skins will be human... Hodor will probably be his first. I don't know what will transpire @ the wall while Jon is kicking-it beyond the wall, but he will eventually turn south. He might find is original body in an ice-cell, free for the taking. It will more than likely be in state like Khal Drogo's body was before Dany smothered it... I think Jon will be able to fight through the skins of multiple bodies simultaneously...

I...what? Was my first response.

No. Was my second. I don't think Jon will be fighting a battle while simultaneously warging through multiple people. I don't know how Jon would find Hodor's body in the first place unless Bran guided him, and we don't know if he can do that. Hodor isn't just an empty shell anybody can take. He has a mind still, though dumb it may be. And if anybody is going to warg multiple things at once(which i don't know is possible, doesn't seem like it from what we know warging is) Bran would be the best bet to do it. Maybe Arya. Both have warged other things besides their direwolves. That ignores the fact that you just can't warg a human, as we see in Varamyr's prologue. Even if you are a badass mother-greenseer being able to warg anybody would make most of the story moot. Why not warg them, commit suicide and rinse/repeat?

Does this sound cool anyway? Yeah.

Do I wish for a scene where Bran wargs every animal in Westeros in a fit of sadness or rage? Um, Yeah.

Do I think any of that will happen? No. Sorry.

[Mace Cooterian]

Considering the many assumptions of this board: if Mance is the son of Bloodraven and a Craster's daughter,

Help me out. Where did I miss the post that Mance is a daughter of Craster?

BTW...I was going to ask about Mance being the son of BR; but I'll hold onto that as more data appears.

[addicted to snow]

It seems pretty clear to me that GRRM intends for Val & Jon/Ghost to travel beyond the wall in TWOW. I don't know if they'll be headed to the heart of winter or going to Hardhome to try & save the wildings, but I feel like they are going North...

The author has also made the effort of explaining how animals/hosts can be broken-in, making it easier for a less experienced skin-changer to warg them. I feel like Hodor has been thoroughly broken-in & will be ripe for the taking should Val & Jon/Ghost chance across the Bran-Cave during their northern ventures.

The prologue of ADWD suggest that little is known about the powers & limits of a skin-changer. Even Varimere doesn't really know that much about it & has many unanswered questions.

GRRM has said in interviews that Jon has 'some dark roads to walk' and that his future is somewhat 'grey'... I think that Jon's spirit will merge with that of Ghost, making him more aggressive, abrasive, rough around the edges, and even brutal. I think that he will forsake his high moral code & revert to a more natural 'survival of the fittest' mentality.

Along the way, I expect that Jon will steal a lot of bodies (including Men & Giants), do a lot of killing (including women & children), and ultimately turn into a bad-guy. A bad-guy who is nearly invincible. In the end, Jon will have spared Tyrion (who will be the king) and Arya will give Jon the Gift of the Many-Faced-God...

[kephv]

It seems pretty clear to me that GRRM intends for Val & Jon/Ghost to travel beyond the wall in TWOW. I don't know if they'll be headed to the heart of winter or going to Hardhome to try & save the wildings, but I feel like they are going North...

Really? I had the complete opposite feeling -- especially since we alreadly have someone in the north.

[Black Wolf Smith]

Help me out. Where did I miss the post that Mance is a daughter of Craster?

BTW...I was going to ask about Mance being the son of BR; but I'll hold onto that as more data appears.

Its a theory that has been tossed around a few times. Tyryan Lannister touches on it on the first 2 pages of H32, but in his own way. IDK? maybe H 28? someone did research and had Craster age, as well as some other things that could make it possible. We heretic's think that both Craster, and Mance play a bigger part of the GoIaF then the Orthodox think.

[Black Crow]

As to the warging business.

The whole point of the Varamyr prologue was to explain how warging works. Ordinarily on death the spirit sleeps within the body and eventually decays with it into the earth. The raising of wights whether by Ice, Fire or any other magic requires a reawakening of the sleeping spirit. Wargs on the other hand enjoy a second life by virtue of their spirit being cut loose to go into a familiar. This, as the Varamyr prologue makes clear, has a number of important consequences. First, having done so the warg can't then transfer to another host. His or her warging days are done and the life must be lived out in the familiar - unless killed as Haggon and Orell were when Varamyr took over their familiars. Secondly, because the spirit has gone, the warg's original body can't be raised as a wight - Varamyr being conspicuously absent from his own funeral party.

As to warging into humans, as Armadil0 points out, not only is this regarded as morally unacceptible, but Bran was only able to do it because Hodor's spirit effectively ran away and hid - and I day say will do so again. Thistle on the other hand fought off Varamyr despite his power, albeit at the cost of her eyes, which raises an interesting question in itself but not germane to the present.

Ultimately the point of all of this is that we've been led by GRRM first through Mel's dodgy divination and then by Jon's last thought, that he's warging into Ghost as he falls. This may very well be the case, but if his own body is truly dead then he can't return to it, no matter how hard Mel tries to kiss him better.

I prefer therefore to rely on GRRM's "Oh, you think he's dead do you?" and await with interest.

[Runaway Penguin]

'e 's not dead, he's restin'. Pinin' for the fjords.

One point about the stabbing: 3 stabs are sure, 4th is speculative (Jon could not feel it because he was passing out... Or because there was no no.4). It is done outside, in the winter, so bleeding/expiring would be slower, OTOH Jon wears heavy leathers, reducing the damage. I think Mel won't be needed to resurrect him, but maybe some external stimulus (like Mel jumping into flames) would be needed to draw him back from Ghost to his body (generally in vegetative state).

[Black Crow]

As to the Lands of Always Winter. I think there may be a misunderstanding of what GRRM means when he talks of POVs. Firstly of course he has spoken of how there are currently too many and promised that no new characters will be given POVs. From this it can reasonably be assumed that somebody we already know will get a walk-on part, probably in a prologue - which is as fatal as wearing a red sweat-shirt in Star Trek. Mel was an exception and despite being dressed in red hasn't been offed yet.

I can certainly see Benjen Stark turning up in a prologue or an epilogue to reveal something interesting before shuffling off, but given that he's not been seen (and even then only in a minor way) since halfway through AGoT, I really can't see him taking on the major role that the Lands of Always Winter demand.

Its going to be Jon, and Jon embracing Winter.

[Black Crow]

Its a theory that has been tossed around a few times. Tyryan Lannister touches on it on the first 2 pages of H32, but in his own way. IDK? maybe H 28? someone did research and had Craster age, as well as some other things that could make it possible. We heretic's think that both Craster, and Mance play a bigger part of the GoIaF then the Orthodox think.

It were me. I figured out that working on dates and perceived ages, Craster could very well be Bloodraven's son - especially given the connections to the Faerie races. I'm not convinced though about Mance.

An idle thought that does occur to me while sitting here is the business of the Summer King and the Winter King, and whether currently Bloodraven is filling in for the Summer King - awaiting the young Bran to take over - and Craster was filling in for the Winter King, pending the arrival of the Prince that was Promised to take over and do the job properly.

[Black Wolf Smith]

It were me¹. I figured out that working on dates and perceived ages, Craster could very well be Bloodraven's son - especially given the connections to the Faerie races. I'm not convinced though about Mance.

An idle thought that does occur to me while sitting here is the business of the Summer King and the Winter King, and whether currently Bloodraven is filling in for the Summer King - awaiting the young Bran to take over - and Craster was filling in for the Winter King, pending the arrival of the Prince that was Promised to take over and do the job properly².

1 "we have seen the enemy, and he is us"

2. Damn, I like it.

[alienarea]

As to the Lands of Always Winter. I think there may be a misunderstanding of what GRRM means when he talks of POVs. Firstly of course he has spoken of how there are currently too many and promised that no new characters will be given POVs. From this it can reasonably be assumed that somebody we already know will get a walk-on part, probably in a prologue - which is as fatal as wearing a red sweat-shirt in Star Trek. Mel was an exception and despite being dressed in red hasn't been offed yet.

I can certainly see Benjen Stark turning up in a prologue or an epilogue to reveal something interesting before shuffling off, but given that he's not been seen (and even then only in a minor way) since halfway through AGoT, I really can't see him taking on the major role that the Lands of Always Winter demand.

Its going to be Jon, and Jon embracing Winter.

One could argue that Melisandre Red Shirt has been offed before she appeared.

More seriously, Melisandre is the character best suited for going to the Land of Always Winter. She doesn't need food, sleep and doesn't freeze. And if she is accompanied by Jon stuck in Ghost, we might have motive: She needs to get Ghost into the Heart of Winter for Jon to be reborn? A race against time before Ghost dominates Jon forever. Convenient she doesn't need sleep.

[alienarea]

It were me. I figured out that working on dates and perceived ages, Craster could very well be Bloodraven's son - especially given the connections to the Faerie races. I'm not convinced though about Mance.

An idle thought that does occur to me while sitting here is the business of the Summer King and the Winter King, and whether currently Bloodraven is filling in for the Summer King - awaiting the young Bran to take over - and Craster was filling in for the Winter King, pending the arrival of the Prince that was Promised to take over and do the job properly.

The are real life examples of very old fathers. It is not impossible for Bloodraven to be Mance's father.

[Black Crow]

Damn, I like it.

What set me to thinking about it is this business about brothers, or at least family. On the one hand Bran is sitting on a weirwood throne in the Earth, learning to be what will effectively be King of Summer, while his brother/cousin Jon is going into the Ice with a pretty good chance of emerging as King of Winter.

Craster is or was behaving as a very much broken down King of Winter, giving up his sons to the Others/Sidhe as the last known one did, while his father (?) Bryn sits on a weirwood throne in the Earth, behaving as a Summer king.

Long long ago the Nights King/King of Winter was brought down by his brother, perhaps destroying the balance.

There could be a pattern here, and if there is it does point to a very bittersweet ending. Jon is paranoid about children, or rather fathering bastards. There's a clear subtext that he does want children, really, but can't let himself go. As King of Winter would he have a son that he must give up?

On which a final thought - Craster was a cross-grained, thoroughly unpleasant character, no doubt about it, but how would you feel if you were cursed to give up every son you fathered?

[Little Wing]

Eh, I think I'd rather see Jon dead than a future Craster....

Anyway, about Benjen - in Jon's first POV chapter in AGoT, when they feast Robert and Jon and Benjen have their little talk, Benjen sits down at the table and from all the choice food set before him picks up an onion and eats it. Now, it's probably nothing, but just thought I'd run it by you intelligent heretic folk, if you think it's a foreshadowing of Benjen and Davos crossing paths? Davos finding Benjen?

[Black Crow]

All things are possible but I can't help but feel we're an awful long way down the road from that feast in Winterfell for such a small thing to be significant.

As to Jon, I don't see him degenerating into another Craster, but nobody said it was going to be easy and the ending is to be bittersweet, not happy. As I see it he has two futures, not necessarily incompatible; one is the King of Winter and the other is the dying hero, tied upright with a sword on his hand and a crow, the Morrigan, on his shoulder.

[Black Crow]

Speaking of the Morrigan, there's actually quite a bit about House Morrigen in the Wiki:

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Morrigen

All of which strengthens the conviction that its one of those clues GRRM delights to plant.

[addicted to snow]

As to the warging business.

The whole point of the Varamyr prologue was to explain how warging works. Ordinarily on death the spirit sleeps within the body and eventually decays with it into the earth. The raising of wights whether by Ice, Fire or any other magic requires a reawakening of the sleeping spirit. Wargs on the other hand enjoy a second life by virtue of their spirit being cut loose to go into a familiar. This, as the Varamyr prologue makes clear, has a number of important consequences. First, having done so the warg can't then transfer to another host. His or her warging days are done and the life must be lived out in the familiar - unless killed as Haggon and Orell were when Varamyr took over their familiars. Secondly, because the spirit has gone, the warg's original body can't be raised as a wight - Varamyr being conspicuously absent from his own funeral party.

As to warging into humans, as Armadil0 points out, not only is this regarded as morally unacceptible, but Bran was only able to do it because Hodor's spirit effectively ran away and hid - and I day say will do so again. Thistle on the other hand fought off Varamyr despite his power, albeit at the cost of her eyes, which raises an interesting question in itself but not germane to the present.

The Prologue to aDWD, goes to a lot of trouble to let the reader know that Varamyr's knowledge of his Warging gift is very limited. Varamyr did not know what would happen when he took Thistle. He THOUGHT that he would loose his gift, but he did not know. One could argue that he was wrong: that he took her, she died, and he reverted to the body of his wolf. One could also argue that by injecting Varamyr's uncertainty over the matter, we was in fact telling us that Varamyr's assumptions were incorrect.

At another point in the Prologue, Varamyr was running with his pack. He could see through the eyes of the wolf ahead of him & the wolf behind him as well. If Varamyr can do this, then just imagine what a more powerful Warg can do.

Yes, taking another human body is morally unacceptable. GRRM in interviews has suggested that Jon will become a morally unacceptable character.

"Bran was only able to do it because Hodor's spirit effectively ran away and hid" This is just another piece of foreshadowing that GRRM has laid out for us. He's let us know that Hodor's body is strong ('No one is stronger than Hodor, No one'), this body's only hobby of late has been to train with a heavy iron sword creating muscle memory, and that the mind of this body will run away and hide. I feel like the author has set all this up as a vessel for Jon, a temporary vessel. Probably the first of many bodies he will take.

I think that the bettersweet ending will be when Arya (wearing a different face) assasinates Jon (wearing a different body). Jon will recognize her Needle & she will stick him with the pointy end... after all, sometimes different roads can lead to the same castle... I still think we have a long way to go before we get to this, but I think this will be the bittersweat ending...

[Black Crow]

The Prologue to aDWD, goes to a lot of trouble to let the reader know that Varamyr's knowledge of his Warging gift is very limited. Varamyr did not know what would happen when he took Thistle. He THOUGHT that he would loose his gift, but he did not know. One could argue that he was wrong: that he took her, she died, and he reverted to the body of his wolf. One could also argue that by injecting Varamyr's uncertainty over the matter, we was in fact telling us that Varamyr's assumptions were incorrect.

At the point where he tried and failed to take over Thistle's body, his own was still alive. Had he succeeded he would have remained in control of her after his real death, but instead she fought him off and it was only after he died that his spirit was momentarily freed before going into its default host. As I say, the whole point of this prologue wasn't to say that Varamyr knows nothing, but to explain the process in order to forestall the Jon will die but warg into Ghost and then warg back into his own body after Mel kisses it better.

[Black Crow]

At the point where he tried and failed to take over Thistle's body, his own was still alive. Had he succeeded he would have remained in control of her after his real death, but instead she fought him off and it was only after he died that his spirit was momentarily freed before going into its default host. As I say, the whole point of this prologue wasn't to say that Varamyr knows nothing, but to explain the process in order to forestall the Jon will die but warg into Ghost and then warg back into his own body after Mel kisses it better.

ETA: Thistle didn't die at this point, one of the things he saw after he himself had died was her dancing madly in the snow as the blood ran down from her empty eye-sockets. She actually died later, presumably when the Wights arrived.