Heresy 32

[Tyryan Lannister]

Wow. I missed that it was confirmed that the Mel broke the connection between Ghost and Jon. It had to be one of the new things she can do since she is stronger at the Wall. Her action there raised a lot of interesting questions for me. She is clearly stronger, but does it have to do with being at one of the "hinges of the world" or because those little dragons (which she is apparently unaware of) are growing stronger? If it is because of the Wall or because the Wall was built on one of those hinges? If the Wall was raised via ice magic why would Mel be stronger? Using Occam's Razor the simplest answer for me is that Mel is attributing her increased powers to the Wall, when it is in fact Dany's dragons. Or it could simply be evidence that all magic is increasing. Where does the Children's magic fit into all this? Is it the neutral force to the Yin/Yang of fire? It strikes me that neither fire or ice find a home in the caves of the Children.

It also strikes me that we've seen Ice breaking the connection of Fire (at least a foreshadowing of it) in the marriage scene in Dance with the wind and snow making the fire gutter out.

There is also the fact that Thoros did not expect Beric to reanimate: he was simply performing an old ritual for the sake of the "last rites" type of thing, not to try and bring Beric back, and he had done this ritual before on others to no affect. But, this time, the magic of the ritual did work... and the timing seems to be roughly the same time as when the dragons came back. So, that's one more thing for the dragon column

[Tyryan Lannister]

Just in case anyone is interest in the German interview from the SSM - there isn't even a tiny spoiler in there once you are past AGoT.

thanks for reading it and posting the (very limited) findings though!

[Uncat]

Just in case anyone is interest in the German interview from the SSM - there isn't even a tiny spoiler in there once you are past AGoT.

Well, that interview was in Germany and Germany surprises hardly ever happen ;)

[Uncat]

There is also the fact that Thoros did not expect Beric to reanimate: he was simply performing an old ritual for the sake of the "last rites" type of thing, not to try and bring Beric back, and he had done this ritual before on others to no affect. But, this time, the magic of the ritual did work... and the timing seems to be roughly the same time as when the dragons came back. So, that's one more thing for the dragon column

Or just in the magic column. I'm comming to think, that the dragons raise and fall with the tides of magic. Just a symptom, not the cause. Now the magic floods are rising and with them is the power of the fire lot as well as the power of the ice lot.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

Or just in the magic column. I'm comming to think, that the dragons raise and fall with the tides of magic. Just a symptom, not the cause. Now the magic floods are rising and with them is the power of the fire lot as well as the power of the ice lot.

The Comet! Comet!

[Melifeather]

Anyway, to the other thought I had from that chapter...

Sam starts off by trying to stab Small Paul with his obsidian/dragonglass dagger. It doesn't appear to work, but that's because Small Paul is still wearing mail and it shatters without penetrating, so it would be unwise to assume that dragonglass is fine on the Others/Sidhe but doesn't work on Wights. I rather suspect that if he wasn't in mail it would have worked, because;

Having broken one dagger and lost his steel one, Sam is then being strangled by Small Paul, but at the last minute grabs a glowing ember from the fire and shoves it in Paul's mouth.

We're then treated to a fairly graphic account of Paul burning, just as Othor did when Jon pulled the same stunt. What's important though is that the lights go out. Those bright blue eyes don't twinkle no more. What it suggests is that the connection has been broken; that Paul has, so to speak been unplugged by the application of fire - and probably the fire thrust inside him at that.

Now this isn't inconsistent with other stuff we've come across. Winter getting inside Adara in the Ice Dragon and Turmund's warning about the cold getting inside, and conversely Thoros breathing fire inside the dying Beric. Presumably therefore thrusting the opposing element inside breaks the spell, so that fire, whether actual living flames or frozen fire - dragonglass, breaks the Ice spell and presumably shoving a few ice cubes down the neck of the corpse once known as Catelyn Stark will administer her quietus.

There is another implication from this though, which again isn't inconsistent with other clues we've picked up. In the new App. GRRM confirms that the weird scene where Ghost apparently doesn't recognise Jon comes about because Mel temporarily breaks the connection between them. Now if Fire can counter Ice magic, as in the demolition of wights, then if Mel's Fire magic can interrupt the connection between Jon and Ghost, does this not suggest that the connection is Ice magic?

Here one paragraph of several under Melisandre's bio in the new app:

When Stannis marches on Deepwood Motte, Melisandre remains behind with some of the Queen's Men. Among her followers is Rattleshirt, the wildling reaver. Through her magic, she is able to make Rattleshirt swifter and more powerful. Later, speaking to Jon, she calls Ghost to her and somehow momentarily interferes with Jon's connection to the direwolf, so that Ghost does not respond to Jon or come at his command. She offers to take Jon to her bed, to show him how to embrace the power that is in him and in Ghost. Again, Jon refuses. Yet while her power seems far greater near the Wall than it ever did in Asshai, she still finds it hard to see Stannis in her fires after he has departed. When she looks for him, all she sees is snow. Instead, it is Jon Snow's face that keeps appearing, as do hundreds of skulls. She also sees towers by the sea pulled down by a black tide, great winged shadows flying through curtains of flame, and a wooden-faced corpse of a boy with a wolf's face whom she believes to be servants of the Great Other, the eternal enemy of R'hllor.

Further down in the bio it is revealed that Rattleshirt is Mance, but the glamour has also made him swifter and more powerful.

Melisandre interfered with Jon's connection to Ghost, but it doesn't specify "how". She could have used a glamour to make herself look like Jon and Jon look like her, but she could be tapping Jon's powers since she offered to show him how to embrace the power within him.

Finally, in the app, "snow" is lower case and not capitalized. We don't know if this is a spelling error or if it is a spelling error in Dance.

Sounds good. The inconsistencies shouldn't be a problem to figure out once the quotes are put side by side. You want to divvy it up any particular way? I'll start with GOT and Clash tonight.

Instead of divvy-ing it up by book, how about by subject?

I'd like to search "years" and "ages". Do you have any ideas? Do you want to search "Andal", "hammer of the waters", and any battles with the Others? It's hard to explain exactly what I'm looking for. Mainly every instance in the timeline that we're given conflicting information, like the hammer of the waters in Dorne or the Neck, and First Men fighting the Others, or the Night's Watch fighting the Others. And when different groups migrated. If you have better ideas on how to search, please let me know. I'm not very good at this!

[alienarea]

Well, that interview was in Germany and Germany surprises hardly ever happen ;)

But we brought down the wall.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

I'd like to search "years" and "ages". Do you have any ideas? Do you want to search "Andal", "hammer of the waters", and any battles with the Others? It's hard to explain exactly what I'm looking for. Mainly every instance in the timeline that we're given conflicting information, like the hammer of the waters in Dorne or the Neck, and First Men fighting the Others, or the Night's Watch fighting the Others. And when different groups migrated. If you have better ideas on how to search, please let me know. I'm not very good at this!

Wish I could help but google books doesn't seem to let me quote, or export text. I have to type everything I find manually which is a crap load of work. You might try the concordance. It's obviously not as complete as searching the book itself but it also references some SSMs

[Uncat]

But we brought down the wall.

Yes, sir. :cheers:

The tides of magic rose and then there was this moment in time where a seemingly impermeable barrier could be moved just like that. Borderlines shifted, the song changed its tune and the world came into a new balance.

Ordinarily shifts like that would only happen acompanied by great wars. But there was this man, who chose not to act as he was supposed to act. Mr. Gorbatschow was the wild card, the unexpected who did something, no one was prepared for.

Feel, where I am getting? We do have a wild card in the song of ice and fire. If Jon is the ice dragon, the union of fire and ice, he is going to stand between both sides as in his dream and he will do something crucial. Whater ever that is.

Of course, first, he will need not to be dead. That would ruin it, would it not?

[Associate Maester]

Here one paragraph of several under Melisandre's bio in the new app:

When Stannis marches on Deepwood Motte, Melisandre remains behind with some of the Queen's Men. Among her followers is Rattleshirt, the wildling reaver. Through her magic, she is able to make Rattleshirt swifter and more powerful. Later, speaking to Jon, she calls Ghost to her and somehow momentarily interferes with Jon's connection to the direwolf, so that Ghost does not respond to Jon or come at his command. She offers to take Jon to her bed, to show him how to embrace the power that is in him and in Ghost. Again, Jon refuses. Yet while her power seems far greater near the Wall than it ever did in Asshai, she still finds it hard to see Stannis in her fires after he has departed. When she looks for him, all she sees is snow. Instead, it is Jon Snow's face that keeps appearing, as do hundreds of skulls. She also sees towers by the sea pulled down by a black tide, great winged shadows flying through curtains of flame, and a wooden-faced corpse of a boy with a wolf's face whom she believes to be servants of the Great Other, the eternal enemy of R'hllor.

Further down in the bio it is revealed that Rattleshirt is Mance, but the glamour has also made him swifter and more powerful.

Melisandre interfered with Jon's connection to Ghost, but it doesn't specify "how". She could have used a glamour to make herself look like Jon and Jon look like her, but she could be tapping Jon's powers since she offered to show him how to embrace the power within him.

Finally, in the app, "snow" is lower case and not capitalized. We don't know if this is a spelling error or if it is a spelling error in Dance.

Instead of divvy-ing it up by book, how about by subject?

I'd like to search "years" and "ages". Do you have any ideas? Do you want to search "Andal", "hammer of the waters", and any battles with the Others? It's hard to explain exactly what I'm looking for. Mainly every instance in the timeline that we're given conflicting information, like the hammer of the waters in Dorne or the Neck, and First Men fighting the Others, or the Night's Watch fighting the Others. And when different groups migrated. If you have better ideas on how to search, please let me know. I'm not very good at this!

By subject is a much better idea! I can do "Andal," "Others," "Long Night," "Hammer of the Waters," do you want to do Wall/Wall built or me how about "First Men"? I think the easiest is to compile all the references first and then identify the conflicting elements--these should be fairly obvious, but it is so easy to overlook a tidbit of info that differs significantly.

[Associate Maester]

By subject is a much better idea! I can do "Andal," "Others," "Long Night," "Hammer of the Waters," do you want to do Wall/Wall built or me how about "First Men"? I think the easiest is to compile all the references first and then identify the conflicting elements--these should be fairly obvious, but it is so easy to overlook a tidbit of info that differs significantly.

Hmm. So since this is about as official as we'll get--I wonder if it confirmation or conjecture that Mel's glamour on Mance made him more powerful. If it is true about the glamour altering a person's abilities that is new info. Gah. Curse my Android devices! :bang:

[alienarea]

Yes, sir. :cheers:

The tides of magic rose and then there was this moment in time where a seemingly impermeable barrier could be moved just like that. Borderlines shifted, the song changed its tune and the world came into a new balance.

Ordinarily shifts like that would only happen acompanied by great wars. But there was this man, who chose not to act as he was supposed to act. Mr. Gorbatschow was the wild card, the unexpected who did something, no one was prepared for.

Feel, where I am getting? We do have a wild card in the song of ice and fire. If Jon is the ice dragon, the union of fire and ice, he is going to stand between both sides as in his dream and he will do something crucial. Whater ever that is.

Of course, first, he will need not to be dead. That would ruin it, would it not?

Crackpot: Maybe Jon already did that without realizing? Getting back on your real life analogy Jon chose to act like he was not supposed to act ... again and again. A few heresies back when we discussed him acting out of character in his last ADwD chapter I suggested that he does so because he feels free. When the wildlings crossed the wall and merged with the Nightwatch his task was done? (a Moses analogy about mot being able to enter the chosen land i.e. harvesting the fruits). It would fit with his dream armored in black[Nightwatch] ice[White Walkers] wielding a flaming sword [Rhollor] killing Robb, Ygritte and so on - basically yhe whole plot merges around him. So maybe he was filled his task and can die now and GRRM unfolds Jons achievements/impact in TWoW?

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

Hmm. So since this is about as official as we'll get--I wonder if it confirmation or conjecture that Mel's glamour on Mance made him more powerful. If it is true about the glamour altering a person's abilities that is new info. Gah. Curse my Android devices! :bang:

The really frustrating part is there is a nook app version, and the Nook runs android. However, they have their own shit lumped on top of android that handles their app store, so we still cant get it :(

[Uncat]

@Wun Wun Feather Crystal and Associated Measter.

Try looking for "a thousand years" and especially for "a thousand years or more", too.

There has been a dispute on that one. There is the chance, that this term does not just mean "f*****g long ago. It might be way GRRM employod to mark certain events, which happend roughly at the same time.

This was discussed ealier but never really analized (I like the idea because it would be a nice writer's trick, but I'm not completly sold).

But if the passages fit together and form a pocture, this might help straightening the timlines.

I'm sorry, that I can't help. I have only printed editions and (and my family doesn't digg that kind of research, too)

[Melifeather]

By subject is a much better idea! I can do "Andal," "Others," "Long Night," "Hammer of the Waters," do you want to do Wall/Wall built or me how about "First Men"? I think the easiest is to compile all the references first and then identify the conflicting elements--these should be fairly obvious, but it is so easy to overlook a tidbit of info that differs significantly.

I do want to do "Wall" and "Wall built". I guess whoever can get to "First Men" can add that. It sounds like a lot already!

[Melifeather]

Does anyone have Jon's dream handy? The one where he's wearing black ice armor holding the flaming sword?

[Uncat]

Oh, btw because that specific vision was brought up: has it ever been discussed anywere, that Mel is seeing events in Mereene? I'm asking because of the leathery wings which would imply the presence of dragons and the black flood which would be Vic approaching. Ok, she talks of towers and not pyramids, but those may not look so different in visions...

[Black Crow]

Yes, sir. :cheers:

The tides of magic rose and then there was this moment in time where a seemingly impermeable barrier could be moved just like that. Borderlines shifted, the song changed its tune and the world came into a new balance.

Ordinarily shifts like that would only happen acompanied by great wars. But there was this man, who chose not to act as he was supposed to act. Mr. Gorbatschow was the wild card, the unexpected who did something, no one was prepared for.

Feel, where I am getting? We do have a wild card in the song of ice and fire. If Jon is the ice dragon, the union of fire and ice, he is going to stand between both sides as in his dream and he will do something crucial. Whater ever that is.

Of course, first, he will need not to be dead. That would ruin it, would it not?

I agree, absolutely, and that's one of the reasons why I'm a heretic.

This is the Song of Ice and Fire but thus far everybody's pretty well focussed on the Game of Thrones, and so far as Jon is concerned I think its fair to say that most of the orthodox readers on the forum are looking at him from the R+L=J angle and speculating how it will be revealed that he's the secret Targaryen heir and everything that will flow from that. At the same time, in the background there's this shadowy threat from the white mob up north which everybody is ignoring, but Jon spends most of ADwD taking it seriously and making preparations to confront it, at the cost of upsetting all sorts of people and attracting a serious assassination attempt. Go Jon Targaryen!

Instead I reckon he's going to turn all those expectations on their head. Having brought the Others/Sidhe to the forefront just as the war for the Iron Throne collapses in mutual exhaustion, we're not going to see him leading the good fight against the ultimate enemy, but learn instead that its not that simple, learn what the Wall's really about, awaken those powers, bring the whole thing crashing down the way the Berlin one did and so bringing peace and harmony to Westeros just as it did in Europe.

[Uncat]

Does anyone have Jon's dream handy? The one where he's wearing black ice armor holding the flaming sword?

As it hapens I just read it yesterday. But can't copy it here. Dead tree stuff, you know... Are you looking for something specific?

[Black Crow]

Oh, btw because that specific vision was brought up: has it ever been discussed anywere, that Mel is seeing events in Mereene? I'm asking because of the leathery wings which would imply the presence of dragons and the black flood which would be Vic approaching. Ok, she talks of towers and not pyramids, but those may not look so different in visions...

I'm not aware its been discussed, but its entirely possible and worth contrasting that one with Jojen's green dream of the fall of Winterfell which involved the sea coming over the walls. That turned out of course to be metaphorically rather than literally true.