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Black Crow

Heresy 32

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Wait, Royce was wielding steel - so, are you thinking that if he had iron instead, he'd have a chance at "slaying" the Other he fought with?

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You do not recognize that the dark area with no sun or stars and a whispering voice is that of Bloodraven in his weirwood cave?

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Wait, Royce was wielding steel - so, are you thinking that if he had iron instead, he'd have a chance at "slaying" the Other he fought with?

Steel/iron, makes no difference, they both count as cold iron. Craster's boy fought him rather than standing arms akimbo and inviting him to see how hard he was, he was just better than Ser Waymar

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You do not recognize that the dark area with no sun or stars and a whispering voice is that of Bloodraven in his weirwood cave?

I was talking about the voice - check the rest of my post :cool4:

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A few chapters later we have a Tyrion POV when Mormont refers to the nearing winter as a Long Night since the current summer has been 9 years long. It sounds as if any long winter is also a Long Night.

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Didn't Waymar's sword break though? And it's mentioned a few times if I believe, of the cold that's so cold it can break iron and steel swords. Doesn't seem to be effective against Others then. But I could be wrong.

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In the end it did - as of course did the Last Hero's, but that was after more than a few cuts and parries. His real problem was that he wasn't quick enough to land one before it happened.

ETA: just to expand a little there's a fundamental difference (from a magical point of view) between weapons of bronze and iron.

Bronze is smelted from copper and tin and poured into a mould. Its a comparatively soft metal and doesn't take or keep an edge well, which is why most bronze weapons take the form of spears, short stabbing sword, or axes - intended to pierce rather than cut.

Iron and steel on the other hand are wrought, hammered, and twisted and have all sorts of ultimately complicated things done to them by smiths in order to turn them into blades, in effect while bronze weapons need fire to smelt the bronze in the first place and then to melt and pour it, iron has a much more intimate connection with fire and arguably the fire goes into the blade. Hence in magical terms its the antithesis of Ice.

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A few chapters later we have a Tyrion POV when Mormont refers to the nearing winter as a Long Night since the current summer has been 9 years long. It sounds as if any long winter is also a Long Night.

Well that was something we discussed a few heresies back in relation to the White Mob turning up more frequently than people think - that there have been many Long Nights/Winters, and the one remembered was just the biggie The Long Night. Of course they may also be a degree of conflation with stories about the more recent ones being ascribed to the big one.

For example the Nights King story may belong to a Long Night 1,000 years ago, but because everybody talks of the Long Night and the Others coming for the first time 8,000 years ago (lets not quibble about actual dates) its put back to the aftermath of The Long Night.

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Speaking of a Long Night, we're supposed to get 16 inches by tonight. Delta cancelled more than 90 flights today, with 150 total for all airlines. It's kind of fun discussing discussing the Long Night when I've got tons of snow coming down! Now I feel like Stannis, Little Wing!

Do you think GRRM will give us a Christmas chapter again this year?

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I certainly hope so - it's the perfect Christmas treat!

Eh, snow and wind stopped here for now, but tomorrow night it's on again... At least today was a good day to clear all the snow, no wind, like yesterday...

On the subject of Long Nights, I agree that they may have had them before, a longish Winter that takes its time. But the Long Night was freakish in that the Others came. Not just ranging and stuff but um... coming in for coffee?

ETA: Stay safe, Feather!

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Speaking of a Long Night, we're supposed to get 16 inches by tonight. Delta cancelled more than 90 flights today, with 150 total for all airlines. It's kind of fun discussing discussing the Long Night when I've got tons of snow coming down! Now I feel like Stannis, Little Wing!

Similar sort of experience earlier tonight; went with the kids to a Christingle service at church - awful lot of emphasis on the darkness and bringing of light. I found myself rather irreverently muttering "for the night is dark and full of terrors..."

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We are definitely, positively addicted to these books!

What were we discussing now? I need to go back a couple pages, cuz there was a few comments that were interesting but left unexplored....be back...

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OH, I just remembered something after I reread the comment about somebody thinking Jon will start collecting skins, which I don't, but it still jogged my memory for a question I wanted to pose and that was, when exactly does the second death happen? Is it when your original body dies, or does it happen when there aren't any human bodies near enough to warg into?

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Ah, for the night is dark and full of snow... My sigil atm is a neon orange snow shovel against a snowy wasteland... Stannis, I feel for ya.

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Southern Indiana. It's only 60-70 Fahrenheit. Lol. I wish it would snow just a little. I want to ski this winter (looks like it's going to be a hot one this year where I'm at).

OH, I just remembered something after I reread the comment about somebody thinking Jon will start collecting skins, which I don't, but it still jogged my memory for a question I wanted to pose and that was, when exactly does the second death happen? Is it when your original body dies, or does it happen when there aren't any human bodies near enough to warg into?

Your first death is when your human body dies. Your second death is when your soul finally fades. It could be because there are no animals for you to warg, or if you have been in an animal long enough where you aren't your self anymore.

That's how I thought of it, anyway.

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http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Varamyr

I've attached a link to the wiki entry on Varamyr. It states that he got his name "six-skins", because he had stolen 6 familiars from 6 other wargs when their original body died. Furthermore, that over the years, Varamyr has died 8 more times while wearing the skins of other animals. His body didn't die during these deaths...just that he was inside the body of 8+ animals when the animal died. So, he didn't really die if he was able to warg back into his body like he did when his dad killed his dog. The wiki credits Thistle with killing Varamyr's body. His body was already dying, so he thought he could spend his second life in Thistle. Do you think there are other characters in the book that are like this? A body taken over by a warg? Because, even if he was successful in taking over Thistle's body, she would still be in there too. Lastly, it seems as if you are able to warg into a previous warg's familiar, it makes you more powerful. At his death he was controlling 3 wolves, a snow bear and a shadowcat.

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Yeah, basically its what Armadill0 said. Varamyr recalls being killed a number of times while warged into another creature, and each time zipped back home to his own body. True death came when that body died - the sudden icy feeling - and then his spirit passed into his familiar, where he was resigned to living out his second life, trapped in that body and gradually fading as the familiar re-asserted itself; in effect living in the familiar as a lodger rather than controller. He does also mention hastening the process, as in the case of Haggon, by taking over his familiar and expelling him, although there seemed to be lingering doubt as to how effective the expulsion had been.

As to the controlling of multiple animals, I don't necessarily think he was inside them simultaneously but rather switching rapidly between them having bonded sufficiently to turn them into a pack notwithstanding the different species.

And with that to bed, but not, alas, to hibernate...

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One last thing, or perhaps something for tomorrow. When Varamyr was warging several animals, did that leave his body unattended? Should the body be left someplace safe?

ETA: and Robert Strong....wight, warg, or neither?

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Robert Strong may be just Gregor that needed some extensive surgery to save him from the poison - possibly damaging his voice etc. Plus he is officially dead so better to keep him that way. Heck maybe unMaester found which organ is affected by the poison and even done a transplantation. There, no dark magic, more like something in tune with whys was he booted from training.

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One last thing, or perhaps something for tomorrow. When Varamyr was warging several animals, did that leave his body unattended? Should the body be left someplace safe?

ETA: and Robert Strong....wight, warg, or neither?

From what we know of warging, his body needs to be in at least a semi-sleeping state

And as proof of this, I give you our new friend, the World App, which, whenever it refers to someone warging an animal, says "Arya dreamed into Nymeria", "Bran dreamed into Summer/Hodor", "Jon dreamed into Ghost", etc. Now, in defense of warging, all the warg incidents described in the World App occur while the human is sleeping, but, at this same time, we have no indication of what is going on for the ones where Bran is awake and chooses to go into Summer/Hodor... although, IIRC, whenever Bran does go into Hodor, it always has something along the lines of "he closed his eyes and..."

Actually, did find one other term used for warging, that being along the lines of "Bran slips his skin", and Varamyr "skinchanges into"

Basically, from the World App, it seems to be describing "warging" as a truly out of body type of experience where if you are going to skinchange for any significant length of time (ie longer than just jumping into and out of a cat to see the surroundings real quick) you effectively abandon your body, so, to answer your question Feather, yes, your body needs to be someplace safe.

As for Ser Robert, what Runaway Penguin said, plus if it was a magical reincarnation thing, we need to know what type of magic (Ice, Fire, Earth, Blood, Water, Air, Shadow, etc.) Qyburn used in order to properly classify his state of undead.

And from the World App on Ser Robert: "[ser Kevan] suspects that Ser Robert might be what is left of Gregor Clegane after Qyburn's experiments."

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